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To: D-fendr; blue-duncan
It explains it well. However, this isn't what Predestination teaches. God elects because of His good pleasure. It doesn't mean it is arbitrary or whimsical. Yet it recognizes a full vision of a God who is a God of wrath and yet a God of mercy. It truly is the whole of the revelation of who God is in Scripture. Romans 9 must be a hard chapter for you, for God Himself says the very thing you are calling pre-Torah. Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Following this Paul says: 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Far from whimsical, He is very purposeful in his actions. 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? A whimsical God who could be bribed was the god of Reformation period Catholicism. Put a coin in the coffer to get your poor dead grandmother out of purgatory. Put in a couple more and get your cousin Jim too. That is a pre-Torah God. Not the God of the doctrines commonly known as Calvinism. (Calvin was actually not a Calvinist but a biblicist in this doctrine reflecting the writings of Paul)

Back to yourself. I think what is bugging you about this view, even though you probably would at least admit that I have used Scripture which supports my view - is that there is an emotional understanding of God that you don't want to let go of. Your objection really isn't theological - because the very things you cited as pre-Torah are Romans 9 specifics. But you want the God who is so full of love that He just chooses everyone. If he doesn't do this, you would rather He choose nobody but give everyone a blank slate mind that at least has the possibility of choosing God. The problem is, the Bible teaches we don't have a blank slate. We are ruined by sin. We are slaves to it. Sin has killed us and made us dead. Dead to God's truth. Dead to God's call. Dead to God's righteousness. The Holy Spirit makes us alive again. Yet, He doesn't do that for everyone and that bothers you.

I don't believe you want a God who can be bribed, and think your heart is genuine in its belief. But, there is some strong meat here that may seem like it will choke you, but when fully understood is quite satisfying. Job had lots of questions. His heart wanted to question God on some very difficult things that God had done or allowed in his life. Yet, after an encounter with the Almighty, Job's heart was no longer troubled but awed. Though we may not understand the whys or hows, a glimpse of the Almighty will leave us, as Isaiah put it, undone. Nothing we can say. Nothing we can do - but worship.



D-Fendr. Please hear this if you have heard nothing else. I don't say follow John Calvin. Calvin made errors in his life. He had some good aspects and some bad ones. He was a mere man. I don't say follow Martin Luther. Luther too was an imperfect man (who could sometimes be a bit entertaining to watch because of his boldness) I don't say follow me. I too have feet of clay. I say search the Scriptures and pray that the Spirit lead you. That all.

In His search of the Scriptures, on this very topic, a famous Catholic theologian came to similar conclusions about what Scripture teaches. He said...

“Many hear the word of truth; but some believe, while others contradict. Therefore, the former will to believe; the latter do not will.” Who does not know this? Who can deny this? But since in some the will is prepared by the Lord, in othersit is not prepared, we must assuredly be able to distinguish what comes from God’s mercy, and what from His judgment. “What Israel sought for,” says the apostle, “he hath not obtained, but the election hath obtained it; and the rest were blinded, as it is written, God gave to them the spirit of compunction,--eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, even to this day. And David said, Let their table be made a snare, a retribution, and a stumblingblock to them; let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see; and bow down their back always.” [Rom. xi. 7] Here is mercy and judgment,--mercy towards the election which has obtained the righteousness of God, but judgment to the rest which have been blinded. And yet the former, because they willed, believed; the latter, because they did not will believed not. Therefore mercy and judgment were manifested in the very wills themselves. Certainly such an election is of grace, not at all of merits. For he had before said, “So, therefore, even at this present time, the remnant has been saved by the election of grace. And if by grace, now it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace.” [Rom. xi. 5] Therefore the election obtained what it obtained gratuitously; there preceded none of those things which they might first give, and it should be given to them again. He saved them for nothing. But to the rest who were blinded, as is there plainly declared, it was done in recompense. “All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth.” [Ps. xxv. 10] But His ways are unsearchable. Therefore the mercy by which He freely delivers, and the truth by which He righteously judges, are equally unsearchable....

And he says that a man is justified by faith and not by works, because faith itself is first given, from which may be obtained other things which are specially characterized as works, in which a man may live righteously. For he himself also says, “By grace ye are saved through faith; and this not of yourselves; but it is the gift of God,” [Eph. ii. 8] --that is to say, “And in saying `through faith,’ even faith itself is not of yourselves, but is God’s gift.” “Not of works,” he says, “lest any man should be lifted up.” For it is often said, “He deserved to believe, because he was a good man even before he believed.” Which may be said of Cornelius [Acts x] since his alms were accepted and his prayers heard before he had believed on Christ; and yet without some faith he neither gave alms nor prayed. For how did he call on him on whom he had not believed? But if he could have been saved without the faith of Christ the Apostle Peter would not have been sent as an architect to build him up; although, “Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain who build it.” [Ps. cxxvii. 1] And we are told, Faith is of ourselves; other things which pertain to works of righteousness are of the Lord; as if faith did not belong to the building,--as if, I say, the foundation did not belong to the building. But if this primarily and especially belongs to it, he labours in vain who seeks to build up the faith by preaching, unless the Lord in His mercy builds it up from within. Whatever, therefore, of good works Cornelius performed, as well before he believed in Christ as when he believed and after he had believed, are all to be ascribed to God, lest, perchance any man be lifted up. ...

Chapter 14.--Why the Father Does Not Teach All that They May Come to Christ.

Why, then, does He not teach all that they may come to Christ, except because all whom He teaches, He teaches in mercy, while those whom He teaches not, in judgment He teaches not? Since, “On whom He will He has mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.” [Rom. ix. 18] But He has mercy when He gives good things. He hardens when He recompenses what is deserved. Or if, as some would prefer to distinguish them, those words also are his to whom the apostle says, “Thou sayest then unto me,” so that he may be regarded as having said, “Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will, and whom He will He hardeneth,” as well as those which follow,--to wit, “What is it that is still complained of? for who resists His will?” does the apostle answer, “O man, what thou hast said is false?” No; but he says, “O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Doth the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump?” [Rom. ix. 18, ff.] and what follows, which you very well know. And yet in a certain sense the Father teaches all men to come to His Son. For it was not in vain that it was written in the prophets, “And they shall all be teachable of God.” [John vi. 45] And when He too had premised this testimony, He added, “Every man, therefore, who has heard of the Father, and has learned, cometh to me.” As, therefore, we speak justly when we say concerning any teacher of literature who is alone in a city, He teaches literature here to everybody,--not that all men learn, but that there is none who learns literature there who does not learn from him,--so we justly say, God teaches all men to come to Christ, not because all come, but because none comes in any other way. And why He does not teach all men the apostle explained, as far as he judged that it was to be explained, because, “willing to show His wrath, and to exhibit His power, He endured with much patience the vessels of wrath which were perfected for destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He has prepared for glory.” [Rom. ix. 22] Hence it is that the “word of the cross is foolishness to them that perish; but unto them that are saved it is the power of God.” [1 Cor. i. 18] God teaches all such to come to Christ, for He wills all such to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. And if He had willed to teach even those to whom the word of the cross is foolishness to come to Christ, beyond all doubt these also would have come. For He neither deceives nor is deceived when He says, “Everyone that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me.” Away, then, with the thought that any one cometh not, who has heard of the Father and has learned....

Chapter 16.--Why the Gift of Faith is Not Given to All.

Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God’s gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given. But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glorieth may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in the Lord. But why He delivers one rather than another,--”His judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out.” [Rom. xi. 33] For it is better in this case for us to hear or to say, “O man, who art thou that repliest against God?” [Rom. ix. 20] than to dare to speak as if we could know what He has chosen to be kept secret. Since, moreover, He could not will anything unrighteous.

-Saint Augustine
On the Predestination of the Saints

Read the Scripture once again. I hope that in doing so you will find the sweetness in the doctrine of election that I know. It is not hateful. It is humbling. Why? Because of His good pleasure, not because of anything I could ever do for Him, just cause He wished to do so - He saved me.
3,956 posted on 01/04/2007 8:32:20 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger

Thanks for all your effort and thought and time and consideration in Post 3956. I mean that sincerely.

What can I say? I have read scripture a great deal, and it came alive for me in a different meaning and way than you. If I approach scripture like a theology textbook, then there are better lawyers than I and they can make great arguments either way - complete with footnotes and precedence and annotations. This, to me, is not religion. And personally, I've found it a counterproductive use of scripture.

Paul, when I read him, is far from a predestinarian (if that's a word). And Jesus's ministry is of such a different view of God that I cannot recognize it coming from your interpretation. Thus is the quandry of proof-texting.

No, God is not what I want 'emotionally.' Of course, I could say the same for other's view. It's difficult at times, but I think we should avoid psychological attributions for others when we can spot them.

There's an old aphorism: "God must have really hated me; he gave me everything I wanted." This applies to me more than a God of my psychological needs.

No, it's much tougher to know God as Jesus taught. Forgiveness is a lot more difficult. "Repenting" and then realizing what true repentence means is much more difficult.

Dying to self, forgiving others, realizing your own forgiveness. This is all much more difficult. True surrender of self is a very hard commandment.

So, if I pick what I'd rather, or what is easier, I wouldn't pick the God I know.

However, if I pick Truth, then here I Am.

Thanks again for your very generous post..


3,964 posted on 01/04/2007 9:30:42 PM PST by D-fendr
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