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To: annalex
It is true that they left after they received the entire explanation of the Real Presence, and that included the fact the Jesus is the Christ. But their initial objection was to the offer of His flesh in the literal sense; the explanation Jesus gave confirmed the literal sense.
No it wasn't. Their initial concern was that he said he came from Heaven. THen they could not understand his saying about eating his flesh. Then the focus goes back to Jesus having come from heaven and they murmur. It is at THAT POINT, not because they are upset over the bread , that they leave. They don't believe He is sent from God. Peter attests to this interpretation clearly when he says to Jesus' question about leaving "where will we go? You have the words of life. And we know for sure and don't doubt who you are. (Paraphrased).

Read the entire book of Romans, the entire book of Galatians, the entire New Testament and then compare James with that.

I have. The Church has. She wrote all these books. You are left to assert that James did not mean it when he said "by works a man is justified"

No I am not. I know what James meant and he is in harmony with Paul. You are not.

This assertion [that mass is a presentation across time of one sacrifice of Christ] is taught NOWHERE in scripture

"This is my body; do it in memorial of me" is in every synoptic gospel.


Not your teaching of it. Period. Jesus nowhere says that his body must be sacrificed time and time and time again. He said IT IS FINISHED. It was done at the cross. No more sacrifice for sin. NONE. The cross was sufficient.

Then salvation is not a gift. It is a merit.

You do not die on the Cross to make the Eucharist possible. Christ did. To freely do what He asks is not a merit in the sense of commanding God to save you; the sovereignty of God does not suffer because of the salvific character of certain works.


NOT OF WORKS. PERIOD.


Do a Bible gateway search on works and ask this question - is this verse saying that I am not saved by works at all. Many are saying that very thing. Multiple books. James must be harmonized with the others, not the others with James. Rightly understood, there is no conflict. He says show me your faith by your works. He doesn't want people saying a quick prayer or a quick confession and then going there merry way. That is not true Christianity. If I say I am a Christian but do nothing for the Lord, then my Christianity is dead. There is no evidence I was Ever a Christian. However, if I don't say verbally I'm a Christian, but show the love of the Lord in my life then folks know I am likely a Christian.

You're living in Galatia. Paul was not pleased with this kind of gospel which is being preached by the Roman Catholic church.

3,947 posted on 01/04/2007 6:54:28 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger
Their initial concern was that he said he came from Heaven. THen they could not understand his saying about eating his flesh. Then the focus goes back to Jesus having come from heaven and they murmur.

Very well, however, the only objection they raise is about the Real Presence. If their objection were invalid and there is no Real Presence than it is not cleared in the Gospel. You simply imagine that their obejction was to Jesus being the Christ. The stated objection is different.

I know what James meant and he is in harmony with Paul.

No, you don't know. It is impossible to have the soteriological belief you have and write what James wrote. He was too emphatic. On the other hand, the Church has no difficulty reconciling James with Paul -- see my above post.

Jesus nowhere says that his body must be sacrificed time and time and time again

We do not teach that is must. We teach that the elements of the Eucharist become the Body of that only sacrifice. "This is my Body".

this verse saying that I am not saved by works at all

There is no such verse. Each time it is either works of law, or for reward, or for boast, or some such thing. There is no statement that would say that man is saved by faith alone (excpet in Luther's fraudulent "translation" of Romans). But there is a plain and bold statement that man is NOT saved by works alone.

3,951 posted on 01/04/2007 7:20:32 PM PST by annalex
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