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To: bornacatholic

We've gone through this before.

The church didn't MAKE the scriptures the product of the Apostles; it VERIFIED that they were the product of the Apostles.

Once certified as having historical evidence of connection to the Apostles, they HAD to be accepted as the authority of the Apostles over the church.


3,824 posted on 01/04/2007 8:40:58 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins
says who?

Brother, I don't think you have much of a grasp as how the New Testament came to be

3,826 posted on 01/04/2007 8:43:25 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: xzins

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/graham_contents.html


3,831 posted on 01/04/2007 8:47:55 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: xzins

http://www.scborromeo.org/truth/fig4.htm


3,875 posted on 01/04/2007 11:39:45 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: xzins; sandyeggo; sitetest; BlackElk; NYer; mockingbyrd; annalex
Books Of The New Testament

From the year A.D. 50 through A.D. 405, several writings appeared claiming to be written by an Apostle, or someone close to an Apostle. These were often read in Church. See Figure, Writings Which the Catholic Church Decided to be the "Canon" of Scripture of the New Testament. The Catholic Church, the only Christian church in existence at the time, had to decide which writings were authentic and inspired, and which would make up the "canon", or the list of the sacred books of the New Testament. The standard used to declare a book as belonging to the canon of the New Testament, or the Church's official list of sacred writings:

1. Written by an Apostle or one close to an Apostle.

2. Liturgical use - use at Mass was an official approval.

3. Orthodoxy in doctrine - the teaching had to agree with the teaching of the Catholic Church.

A list of the inspired books of the New Testament, as we have them in the Bible today, was first put together in the 39th Pastoral Letter of St. Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, Egypt, in A.D. 367. He wanted this list of sacred books to be the "canon", or list of sacred books of the New Catharsis. He lists the 27 books of the New Testament and declares all are apostolic and canonical. St. Athanasius said, "In these alone is proclaimed the Good News of the teaching of true religion." This list was confirmed by the Council of Hippo (393), the Council of Carthage (397), both in North Africa (St. Augustine being very influential in both councils), Pope Innocent I (405), and the Council of Trent (1546). The Old Testament books accepted as Canonical were "officially" declared to be the "Canon" of the Old Testament Scripture by the Council of Trent. The Canon of Scripture consists of 46 books in the Old Testament and 27 books on the New Testament, 73 in all.

To Tell You The Whole Truth about the Church and the Holy Bible

The Bible: Important Translations of the Bible

Septuagint and Catholic Bible

The Septuagint (which comes from the Latin for 70, "septuaginta") was a translation of the Hebrew Books of the Old Testament into Greek, by 70 Jewish scholars. The translation became necessary when it was found that most of the Israelites in exile, especially as a result of the Babylonian Captivity of 586-536 B.C., did not know Hebrew, but wanted to read the sacred books. The work was done in Alexandria, Egypt, sometime between 250 B.C. and 100 B.C.. This translation was warmly welcomed by Jews outside Palestine, as was read by many Gentiles. Consequently, many Gentiles were familiar with the important ideas in the Old Testament and were thus prepared to hear and accept the teachings of Jesus Christ.

In the early Church no list of inspired books had been accepted or approved. Christ, and then the Apostles, did not give us a list of books which were inspired. However, the Septuagint was extremely influential among Jews living outside Palestine (and some inside Palestine), and was the sacred writings adopted by the early Greek-speaking Christians. Throughout the New Testament there are more than 300 direct quotations or paraphrases from the Septuagint Bible out of some 350 Old Testament references. Scholars regard this as an indication that the Catholic Christian writers of the Apostolic Era had adopted the Septuagint as their own. The Christians took the Septuagint over so completely that the Jews decided to adopt their own version. This was done about 90 A.D.. The Council of Hippo (393), the Council of Carthage (397), and Pope Innocent I (405) listed the 46 books of the Septuagint as inspired. The Catholic, Greek, Russian and other Orthodox Old Testaments are based on the Septuagint.

Vulgate

The Vulgate is the Latin version of the Bible prepared by St. Jerome (382-404), at the request of Pope St. Damasus I. He translated the Old Testament directly from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, and revised the existing Latin text of the New Testament. "Vulgate" means "common" or "popular", since Latin was the popular language in Europe at the time. This translation was done in a language they could understand. Very few knew how to read. The Vulgate was used through the centuries and was declared the official Latin text of the Bible for Catholics by the Council of Trent (1545-63). It was from the Vulgate that almost all English Catholic translations were made until the middle of the 20th century, when scholars began to use original sources. It remained the official Latin text of the Bible for the Catholic Church until Pope John Paul II replaced it with the New Vulgate in 1979.

Catholic Christians and non-Catholic Christians believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. This belief is based on their acceptance of the fact that the Catholic Church had the authority to declare which books were inspired and should be included in the list of sacred books or "Canon", and which should not be included.

The Catholic Church knew it had this authority and guidance because:

1. "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever - the Spirit of truth" (John 14:16-17)

2. "However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, as come, He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13)

3. "... I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20)

4. "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" (Matthew 16:19)

5. "... it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets" (Ephesians 3:5)

6. "... the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)

For more than 1500 years the Catholic Church has accepted and taught that these 73 books of the Bible are inspired and make up the list of sacred books. Jesus gave His Apostles and Church the gift of the Holy Spirit when He said. "... 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'" (John 20:22). Jesus also said, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13). It is impossible that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, would lead the Church in an error for 1900 years. Such a promise was made to the Church alone. Martin Luther decided to reject that and to accept the Hebrew Bible since it did not have the 2nd Book of Maccabees which says, "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sin." (2 Maccabees 12:46 NAB). Luther did not agree with praying for the dead. He did not accept seven books of the Old Testament, and also did not accept these New Testament books: Hebrews, 2 John, 3 John, James, Jude, 2 Peter and Revelation. These books contained teachings which did not agree with his teaching. By the year 1700, however, Lutheran scholars had restored these books to the New Testament. We must remember that Jesus promised that His Spirit would be with His Church (John 14:11-12) and that the Spirit of Truth would guide the Church into all truth (John 16:13). Paul said, "... which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). So the Spirit of Truth guides the Church in all truth, not an individual person.

Hebrew Scriptures and Protestant Bible

Jewish scholars set up four criteria which sacred books had to pass in order to be in the Jewish canon (official list of sacred writings):

1. They had to be in harmony with the Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible).

2. They had to have been written before the time of Nehemiah (c.400 B.C.).

3. They had to have been written in Hebrew.

4. They had to have been written in Palestine.

These criteria excluded the seven books which are not in the Hebrew canon or Protestant Old Testament of today. These books are Judith, Tobit, 1st Maccabees, 2nd Maccabees, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), and Baruch. (Taking the first letter of each book, we have the name J.T. MacWeb - an easy way to remember them.)

The Protestant Old Testament is the same as the Hebrew canon, and their New Testament is the same as the Catholic New Testament. Most Protestant Bibles, while not accepting those seven books as inspired, are now including them at the end of the Old Testament, as did the 1611 King James Version (Authorized Version).

The Bible In English (before printing)

Various parts of the Bible were translated into Saxon, the language of England at that time, by:

c. 670 Caedmon, a monk

c. 709 Aldhelm, Bishop of Sherborne

c. 735 Venerable Bede, a monk of Jarrow

c. 849-901 King Alfred

c. 955-1020 Aelfric, Archbishop of Canterbury

c. 1020-15thC. English, as we know it today, was developed during this time, and translations appeared in the language of the time.

c. 1382 John Wycliffe produced the first complete translation of the entire Bible in English

Printed Bibles - (A) Protestant

1525 Tyndale Bible

Translated by William Tyndale. It had many errors in it, and was not complete.

1535 Coverdale Bible

This was the first complete English Bible to be printed, and was commissioned by King Henry VIII's Secretary of State, Cromwell.

1537 Matthew's Bible

This was the work of John Rogers.

1539 The Great Bible

This was the work of Miles Coverdale. It was the first official Church of England Bible. It was in the language of the people and set up in every church in England.

1560 Geneva Bible

Sometimes called the "Breeches Bible". "They sewed fig leaves together and made themselves breeches." (Genesis 3:7 GB). It was a revision of the Tyndale and Great Bible, and was the Bible of Shakespeare, Bunyan and the Puritans.

1568 Bishop's Bible

Replaced the Great Bible as the official Bible of the Church of England.

1611 King James Bible (Authorized Version)

King James I appointed 54 of the best scholars in England to revise the Bishop's Bible. It took them seven years. The authorities authorized this translation which had enormous influence on the minds of people, and on English literature. The New Testament in the King James translation was taken, with few exceptions, from the Catholic Douay Rheims translation, which was completed 29 years previously. Like all translations, the King James translation had errors in it. In the last century, Protestant Scripture scholars met to come up with a better translation because there were several thousand errors in the existing King James translation.

1881-1885 Revised Version

The King James version was revised.

1952 Revised Standard Version

King James translation again revised.

1970 New English Bible

1973 New International Version

1980 New King James Version

1986 New Revised Standard Version

Printed Bibles - (B) Catholic

1582-1609 Douay Rheims

This translation was done from the Vulgate by Gregory Martin and William Allen in Douay and Rheims, France.

1749-1763 Challoner Revision

Bishop Challoner revised the Douay-Rheims and this remained in almost universal use among English-speaking Catholics for nearly 200 years.

1941 Confraternity Revision

It revised only the New Testament.

1944-1950 Knox Bible

Ronald Knox was commissioned by the English Bishops to make a new translation from the Vulgate.

1952-1970 New American

This translation, from the original languages, was commissioned by the American Bishops, and in 1964 was adopted for use in the Liturgy.

1966 Jerusalem Bible The Jerusalem Dominicans edited this French translation. It was then translated into English.

1965 Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition New Testament was prepared by a committee of the Catholic Biblical Association of Great Britain. It included wording which reflects Catholic Tradition.

1966 Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition Old Testament was an updated translation of the KJV which included the Deuterocanonical books.

. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS:

1. Written the New Testament.

2. Decided which books went into the Bible, i.e., decided what books are inspired and should make up the "Canon" of scripture.

3. Compiled those books into a collection which it named the "Bible."

4. Preserved the Bible, for the first 1500 years by hand writing each book over and over again on fresh papyrus, or on fresh skins of animals.

5. Preserved the Bible from destruction.

6. Preserved the Bible from error.

7. Defended the Bible through the last 1900 years.

8. Grounded her doctrines upon the Bible.

9. Held the Bible in highest veneration.

10. Interpreted the Bible for Her people.

11. The right to call the Bible Her Book.

St. Augustine; "I would not believe the Gospel unless moved thereto by the authority of the Church."

*And yet y'all are protestants (not that there is anything wrong with that) who think you know what the Bible means better the the Catholic Church.

Please feel free, any of you, to post a history of how protestants came to be the authoritaive interpreters of Scripture.

Oh, and please cite in Scripture where it identifies some 16th century revolutionaries as the luther-come-lately's who will assume Divinely Constituted authority

As far as I can tell, y'all had not a blessed thing to do with the new testament, not that that has stopped y'all from claiming authority over it.

It is as though I was in a testate hearing about my Father's Will and the officer reading it declares "..leaves everything he has to his only son....

And, suddenly, a stranger bursts into the room and shouts, "That's me. I'm his son."

And I sit there shocked..."No. I am his only son.

"Nah", says the intruder, "Son really means..."

And then the proceeding bogs down into Monty Pythonesque absurdity.

You, obviously, think the New Testament was meant to be interpreted by you. OK, Prove it.

Show me how you were involved in its creation.Show me the criteria you usd to decide which, among ALL of the texts them circulating, were the ones which were to be Canonised. Show me how you were involved in its preservation. Show me the historical evidence you have. Show me which of your authoritites have a direct link to Peter. Show me which of your authorities have a direct link to any of the Apostles. Show mw which of your authorities have the same beliefs and practices, the orthopraxis, of Peter and The Apostles.

Do something more than just make an unsubstantiated claim

3,890 posted on 01/04/2007 12:12:50 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: xzins
I'm gonna post a link that documents the texts circulating prior to the Catholic Church deciding what would and would not be in the Canon of the New Testament.

You have no way of knowing whether these texts should have been included or not. The ONLY way you know they ought to have been included is because the Catholic Church - not you, not scripture itself - made the authoritative decision. The only way you know the texts not included ought not have been included is solely because of the Catholic Church

3,915 posted on 01/04/2007 2:14:49 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: xzins

http://www.scborromeo.org/truth/fig4.htm


3,916 posted on 01/04/2007 2:15:35 PM PST by bornacatholic
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