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To: annalex
So? the entire discourse is about a future gift (John 6:52).
First, John 6:52 doesn't signify a future gift. Second, that is a big "so." Jesus is saying, in the present, this is my body. Not this will be my body. But this IS my body.

If it were symbolic, the disciples would not have left, as they objected to the physical eating of His flesh (John 6:53).
If it weren't symbolic he wouldn't have been speaking of a future gift. They weren't physically eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood physically when Jesus said "This is..." It was symbolic then. It is symbolic now.

Gee, Annalex. Here is a million dollars for you to keep. Whoever takes the million dollars gets to keep it. Of course, I don't have a million dollars, but I'm speaking of some future gift which I haven't given yet and telling you here in the present, here it is. SYMBOLIC, just as Passover was.

it is a memorial supper

It is both a memorial supper and a real presence of Christ in the body ("do this in rememberance of me" but also "this is my body"; also see 1 Cor 11 and especially v. 29 where a reference to the real presence is made).

Christ offered one sacrifice for sin and there remains no more. To say otherwise is to destroy the gospel.

we have our works being mixed in with grace

Yes we do. The Bible tells us so.

The Bible says that salvation is NOT OF WORKS. You show your faith by your works. But works do not save you.

Let me ask you a question. If I were a Catholic but did not participate in mass, ever. I didn't like the thought of eating Christ's body and drinking his blood. What would become of my soul when I died?
3,753 posted on 01/03/2007 7:26:20 PM PST by Blogger
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To: annalex; Dr. Eckleburg

Cancel on the future gift part. Your verse number in the Douay Rheims is different from other Bibles.

It doesn't negate the point though. Jesus said "THIS IS" He spoke in the present, AND he spoke in the future. When he spoke in the present He was speaking symbolically for it wasn't His physical body. It represented what WOULD HAPPEN.

Now, I await your answer to my question about what would happen if I didn't like the thought and refused to partake of Mass.


3,754 posted on 01/03/2007 7:33:34 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger
Regarding the "this is my body" said at the Last Supper, the present tense is there because the Last Supper, my Church teaches, was the first Eucharist. The bread was the Precious Body just like at any other Mass.

They weren't physically eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood physically when Jesus said "This is..." It was symbolic then

In John 6 Christ indeed describes a future gift of His body, without giving them anything to eat at that time. But that does not make it symbolic; His crucifixion also happened in the future relative tot he discourse and that was not symbolic. They take it correctly as a prediction of eating His body in the physical sense, get appalled and leave. He does not correct their impression, but rather reinforces it with several amens, the "food indeed" and the choice of the verb as "trogo", literally "gnaw", at one point.

Christ offered one sacrifice for sin and there remains no more

That is correct (check Hebrews). This one and only sacrifice occurs every mass though.

works do not save you

This is extrascriptural spin. Read James 2.

If I were a Catholic but did not participate in mass, ever. I didn't like the thought of eating Christ's body and drinking his blood. What would become of my soul when I died?

Your soul would then be in great peril because you would have wilfully rejected Christ:

57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

, and violated His commandment:

Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

You are in the same peril, incidentally, whether you consider yourself Catholic or not, because the commendment comes from Christ Himself and not from the Catholic Church.

3,762 posted on 01/03/2007 9:09:19 PM PST by annalex
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