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Nor do I.

D-fendr, your objection to this doctrine, I suspect, stems from the same reasons that others reject it. 1)Emotionally, you want everyone to come to Christ and 2)You somehow think it is unfair for God to have chosen some and not others. Nor do I.

For the former, we all agree. Emotionally, we want nobody to go Hell. When Saddam Hussein was executed, there wasn't joy in my heart, nor should their be in anyone's. A lost soul went to Hell. Yet, Saddam went there because He rejected the light all around Him. While there is a certain gladness that he will not hurt anyone any more, there is no joy that he died and went to Hell. Yet men do. They go to Hell not because God didn't choose them but because they have rejected every open door and opportunity to follow God that God has offered. They are without excuse (Romans 1) Nor do I.

The second one that I hear a lot is that election is unfair. To that I say, I agree!!!! It is horribly unfair. But I would also submit, that you really don't want fair. Fair would be Hell for all of us for all of us sinned. Fair is NOT Jesus taking our sins on the cross and paying for them with His own blood. We don't want fair. We want grace. Nor do I.

Grace is completely unmerited and at God's pleasure. We can not obligate God to do anything. He does as He wishes. He isnt' obligated to give anyone salvation and would be quite within His standards of Justice and Holiness to deny everyone. He does so as He wishes, not based upon any merit we have but just because He as God wants to do it. He is God. He has that right. Nor do I.

As the text that Dr. Eckleburg quoted states: Nor do I.

Romans 9 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Nor do I.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nor do I.

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Nor do I.

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Nor do I.

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Nor do I.

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Nor do I.

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Nor do I.

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

God has the power to do anything He wants. Yet, he chose Israel and left the Gentile nations to their own for 4000 years. Was this unfair or was it within His rights as God? He now has made salvation available to all. He has the power. Is it wrong for Him to not save everyone since He can change minds and hearts? He created them. Is He now unjust because He doesn't use the power He has and cause everyone to believe? What if He has different purposes? What if He wants the objects of His mercy to understand what grace is all about? What sin is all about. What holiness demands? Are you going to stand and say He is unjust for doing as He wishes?

You're missing my point.

It's with your whole picture, not just with not everyone being saved.

It's about the lack of meaning, the capriciousness of it, the denial of free will and choice. The whole predestination thing.

It's the total structure, not the end result of non-universalism.

Here's your theology as I see it. Please tell me if I have a piece of the structure wrong.

1) Everyone born today is doomed to eternal damnation (Man may have had a choice in the past according to you, but not now, that's what every human is born into - deserving damnation.)

2) Some will be 'elect' and given grace to want to come to God. Those so blessed will always come. Those not blessed will always not come.

3) There are no choices or decisions you can make involved in the matter, nothing you can do or say or choose can make any difference. Your fate was determined long before you were born. If you're not elect, it's your fault, if you're elect, it's not your fault.

4) God could save all, there's nothing different about those he chooses and those damned for ever, no consideration of their heart or soul; you should just be grateful not everyone is left to eternal hell.