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To: Forest Keeper; adiaireton8; Kolokotronis; P-Marlowe; Blogger; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights
if Mary was only a surrogate, then what is Christ's "blood-claim" to being the Messiah and the Son of David?

Mary was not a surrogate; she was His real Mother. The "surrogate" was used to show that a mother does not have to "create" life but can give birth to a life already existing.

The source of His humanity is His Mother's flesh which he "took" on Himself. Word the God is God and divine nature cannot mix with human nature. To speak of any "zygote" resulting from a divine "seed" and human ovum is pagan; the resulting embryo would be a demigod.

Through the flesh of His Mother, which He took on, He is related in His humanity to Abraham and to David. His "legal" lineage to David is through His adoptive father, St. Joseph. In Judaism, maternal lineage gives "Jewishness," but only paternal blood line (which includes adopted children) gives inheritance (although Mary was also related to David by blood if I am not mistaken).

How could Jesus have been "by and of" her flesh if there was no "Mary" in Him?

In his human nature, in her flesh. God the Word has no flesh, no form, nor shape, no humanity.

One thing I find very amusing about this is that it could be said that I and those of like minds are making Mary "more important" in the scenario of what actually happened

Her her importance cannot be overstated. She was the instrument that made Christ appear on earth. She was chosen for that miracle and tasked with that responsibility. You think being a mom is trying? What about when your Son is the Savior of the world?

3,052 posted on 12/28/2006 7:56:08 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; adiaireton8; Kolokotronis; Blogger; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; ...
God the Word has no flesh, no form, nor shape, no humanity.

I can't believe I'm reading this stuff.

3,057 posted on 12/28/2006 9:58:36 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: kosta50; P-Marlowe

"God the Word has no flesh, no form, nor shape, no humanity."


Yikes! Now you're flirting with Docetism.


John 1:14-And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Numerous Theophanies of God the Word appeared in the Old Testament. (For example, Genesis 32:10-30) Further, in His resurrected body, Jesus had a physical body (glorified) which ate, walked, and could be felt.

God can take on whatever form he wishes. He doesn't need human agency to take on human flesh. The ONLY reason that Mary was used was to fulfill Scripture. Christ Jesus was the seed of the woman and the seed of David according to the Scripture.


3,058 posted on 12/28/2006 10:38:02 PM PST by Blogger
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; adiaireton8; P-Marlowe; Blogger; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; ...
"In his human nature, in her flesh. God the Word has no flesh, no form, nor shape, no humanity."

This presents the once (and perhaps still) perceived tension between σαρκοθεντα and ενανθρωπησαντα. Both terms are used by the Fathers in the Creed to describe the Incarnation and in English they seem to mean the same thing but in fact they carry different shades of meaning. Generally, it has been held that Athanasian theology was Λογος-σαρζ based while the Antiochian was Λογος-ανθρωπος. Protopresbyter George Dragas who is Professor of Patristics at Holy Cross Seminary has written a new book on this issue called "Saint Athanasius of Alexandria, Original Research and New Perspectives".

Off to the office; more on this later.

3,062 posted on 12/29/2006 4:27:14 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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