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To: Blogger

Let me try to reword this to make it clearer..

[God creating a human being pre-destined, or unavoidably fated, for damnation is incongruous to me.]

If I'm understanding you correctly, this is SOMEWHAT the same for you. So, the back-story is essential to take this responsibility - predestined damnation - out of God's hands.

Is this close to a correct understanding of your view?


2,990 posted on 12/26/2006 4:29:49 PM PST by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr

I believe so, but I wouldn't call it the "back story." I would call it what Scripture says.

He shows mercy on whom He will show mercy and whom He will He hardeneth (not that He causes them to be inclined against Him; for they do that on their own. But He allows man to his own devices. Pharoah, the example in Romans 9, was already inclined towards complete and total rejection of God. God did harden him though. He did not cause Pharoah to turn any more against God, for we see in Scripture his desire was completely against God from the beginning. There isn't even the slightest hint that Pharoah wanted things God's way. But, God did harden Pharoah. That is, he orchestrated events such that the full fruits of Pharoah's evil would be manifest.

Romans 9

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

God didn't cause us to embrace evil. God could have justly destroyed the entire world after Adam and Eve sinned. He chose not to. He wanted to teach His created beings what grace was, what mercy was, what good was, and what evil was. He wanted it shown to them the wages of sin. To do this, He allowed the contrast to exist. He allowed people to procreate creatures that would be by nature children of disobedience. He did this, so that he would show the children that he showed mercy upon how far man could fall and how gracious He was to them personally.

IOW, Nobody goes to hell because God makes them into sinners and makes them want to turn from Him. They go to Hell because that's what they want, eternal separation from God. They are children of disobedience and children of wrath from the beginning. He endures with much longsuffering their existence. He doesn't make them into what they become, but allows them to continue for His purposes.


If I have two workers in a barn. And the barn catches on fire. And I try to get both workers to come with me out of the fire and both refuse. But soon, I give to one worker something which totally opens his eyes and CHANGES HIS HEART concerning staying in the burning barn. He realizes that if he remains in his stubborness, he will die. He further sees my benevolence and his entire 'want to' is now inclined to follow after me. He follows me to safety and is saved. The other man sees the testimony of my goodness before himself - yet, he knows that in order to follow me to safety, he will kiss goodbye his own stubborn independence. He ignores the testimony of my goodness all around and goes even further in that he a)detests me and b)builds himself an idol and declares that it will save him. This man is burnt up in the fire. Whose fault is it that he burned? You may say that it is both the man's fault and my fault for not giving him what I gave the first man that changed that man's 'want to.' However, then you would be falling into the trap of trying to make God "fair" by what we unthinkingly call "fairness." Again, fair is both men burn. Mercy was given to one man, and the other was left to his own devices. I didn't choose to put the men in a burning building. They were in there by their own desire to be in there. I didn't cause one to stay there even though a way of escape was made evident. He chose that himself. Yet, I did rescue one man.

God did the same for us. He wasn't obligated to do anything. Mercy and grace are not required of God. They are given by Him. Justice and holiness are part of His person. He can not violate his own justice. He can not violate His own holiness.

We were as people who were in a burning building, knowing that sure destruction awaited us. Then through the Holy Spirit, he gave us a new "want to." to follow Him. He didn't do it for everyone. He didn't have to. The others are still condemned justly. We, however, have received mercy.


2,992 posted on 12/26/2006 5:15:16 PM PST by Blogger
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