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To: jo kus

Read Romans 9 and just meditate on it. God would be just if he sent all of us to Hell. NONE of us deserve Heaven. NONE of us will choose Him if not drawn. Every one of us loves our sin. We don't want to submit to God. We are rebellious to Him. It is only Mercy that gives us salvation. If He sent it to noone, then He would still be just. But, Romans 9 says he sends it to some. Why some and not others? So that the objects of His mercy can understand grace. If we didn't see the fullness of evil, we could not understand good. God is God. He can and does do as He wishes. He doesn't force people to go to Hell. He lets them have the natural inclination of their hearts. Yet, for some, the objects of His mercy, He makes them alive to and through His Spirit and draws them to Himself. There is no such thing as free will to a lost person. A lost person is not free but is willingly enslaved to their sin. They wallow in it. They don't want to do without it. They are not free, but it is not God enslaving them. It's their own selfish fallen self. True free will comes about when God quickens a Person to His Spirit and regenerates that which was dead. Once the damage that Sin did is repaired and a person that was dead is now alive, he/she WILL come to Christ and through the true faith in Christ (which even itself is a fruit of the Spirit), will believe. Christ will lose NONE of these who come to Him and none come to Him without the Spirit's drawing.

Again, Romans 9 is really a clear outline of this doctrine. At first, it may be difficult. But eventually you find it lovely. Rather than puffing one up, it is humbling to know that for nothing in myself, God chose me. It doesn't hamper evangelism for as far as I know God chose the whole world. I let Him be God and do as He wills and I am myself and obey His Word.

There is no cause for mockery in the final judgment for nobody can stand up and say that they deserve anything other than Hell. Just because God showed mercy on some, doesn't mean that the rest did not deserve their fate. They are guilty as charged and lived their lives avoiding submitting to God. They wanted God to have nothing to do with their lives. God gives them their wishes. For eternity, they will be separated from Him.

For the objects of His mercy, they have truly been made free. He whom Christ has made free is free indeed (which implies they weren't free to begin with because they were 'made' free). We can choose to do things in this life for God's glory. We will never be judged for our sins because Christ already took our judgment/punishment. But we are judged for our works. Some will be in heaven with nothing to show for it. They lived selfishly. They lived more for self than Christ or had bad motivations in the things they did. Others have sacrificed much for the Lord. Their reward will be great.

Hyper-Calvinism/double predestination is not biblical. Man is still responsible. God is still sovereign. God works out the balance and we follow and obey Him.


2,960 posted on 12/24/2006 10:04:03 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger
Read Romans 9 and just meditate on it. God would be just if he sent all of us to Hell. NONE of us deserve Heaven. NONE of us will choose Him if not drawn. Every one of us loves our sin. We don't want to submit to God. We are rebellious to Him. It is only Mercy that gives us salvation. If He sent it to noone, then He would still be just. But, Romans 9 says he sends it to some. Why some and not others?

That is an out of context interpretation. Paul is talking about Jews and Gentiles, not about every individual person. God desires ALL men to be saved. God died for ALL men's sin. God graces ALL men - although not all equally. We believe God graces ALL men sufficiently to be saved. Otherwise, this makes God a liar that He desires all men to be saved. If man cannot save themselves, then God MUST provide at least "sufficient" grace so that ALL men CAN be saved. Because ALL men are NOT saved, we must postulate that God "awaits" man's response individually to the grace He gives. Thus, only SOME grace is "later" considered efficacious to actually save a man. Romans 9 deals with God's actions towards the Jews and the use of the Gentiles to call Jews to repentance.

Naturally, I agree that God is just. But for this to be true, He must give us the necessary ability to obey His commmandments - even if it is "sufficient" ability. Thus, our free will is the determining factor. If God judges man on whether we obey His commandments, then God would give us the means to do it. Otherwise, we could ask God "how could I obey your commands if you made me not able to do it?". Would we condemn a man who could not benchpress 2000 pounds without any mechanical aid or other help? Thus, God gives us the ability to do it, but we have to also step up to the bar. I cannot say how this interaction works on this side of heaven.

There is no cause for mockery in the final judgment for nobody can stand up and say that they deserve anything other than Hell.

Of course. I couldn't lift 2000 pounds myself! But even if I have a winch or a lift, I still have to step forward and execute the lift - with the help given me. Is this analogy useful in understanding God's graces are absolutely necessary AND WE must do something as well? (which do not mean we have earned anything)

We will never be judged for our sins because Christ already took our judgment/punishment. But we are judged for our works.

Where does the Bible make the distinction between sins and works? I am not sure where you get this from. Anytime the Bible says we are judged, it is refering to our actions, our works, what we do, which includes both our sins and our good deeds. Christ paid the price for our sins, which deserve eternal punishment. Thus, God's justice is met. But that doesn't mean that God will ignore our sins that are unrepented of!

Hyper-Calvinism/double predestination is not biblical. Man is still responsible. God is still sovereign. God works out the balance and we follow and obey Him.

I agree with that statement, but probably the nuances of the final sentence we see a bit differently.

Regards

2,965 posted on 12/25/2006 10:24:57 AM PST by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: Blogger

A serious question on your post:

Does this reading have truth based on how you know God to be, or do you know how God is from this reading?

Hope you understand what I'm asking..


2,967 posted on 12/25/2006 7:59:17 PM PST by D-fendr
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