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Blogger Upon what do you base your belief that the Catholic church was founded by Christ in 33 AD?
A8: The testimony of the Church.

Blogger: Aside from the fact that this is Circular reasoning (which I will admit to on my own behalf but you will not on your own in all likelihood)

Jesus told the Apostles that He had been sent by the Father, and that all authority had been given to Him [Jesus]. The Apostles also report that Jesus gave authority to them [the Apostles], saying, "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." (Luke 10:16) He also gave them authority so that whatever they bound on earth was bound in heaven, and loosed on earth was loosed in heaven.

If you were to ask the Apostles: "Upon what do you base your belief that the Church was founded by Christ?", they would probably have replied, "On the words of Christ". And if you had said, "Why should we believe you, rather than the teachings about Christ spread by other people like Simon Magus?" They would have replied, "We are eyewitnesses; Christ Himself gave us authority and commissioned us to speak in His name." They may also have appealed to the miracles that they performed as well.

If you had lived in the first generation after the death of the Apostles, and you had asked a bishop like Ignatius, "Upon what do you base your belief that the Church was founded by Christ?", he would have replied, "The testimony of the Apostles." And if you had replied, "Why should we believe you, rather than our interpretation of the writings left by the Apostles?" He would have replied, "Because the Apostles gave us bishops authority and responsibility and power through our ordination by the laying on of their hands to safeguard the deposit of faith which they passed on to us in their writings and oral teachings. We are the shepherds of the Church of God, and any teaching or interpretation contrary to the doctrine we pronounce is ipso facto heterodoxy.

No it isn't. I didn't deny a material aspect....I deny that the church of Christ is an Organization ...

If you deny that the Church of Christ subsists in an organization, then you are denying a material aspect. The unity of the Church is not merely a spiritual unity (i.e. we all share the same doctrine, or love). We are united by being in communion with our bishop. And the bishops are united by being in communion with the successor of Peter, the bishop of Rome. As #882 of the Catechism says, "The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." The faithful on earth are united into one organic whole by being united to a *material* head, namely, the bishop of Rome. Without a visible material head, there cannot be perfect material unity. And without perfect material unity, there cannot be the kind of unity Christ prays in John 17 for His followers to have, a unity that (according to Christ) should be like that of the Father and the Son.

But that hierarchical structure is NOT the church. The church is the people. Not the structure.

It is not either/or. I agree that the structure is not identical to the Church. But the hierarchical structure is an intrinsic part of the Church, and cannot be removed from the Church. Even in the world to come, the twelve Apostles will sit on twelve thrones and judge (rule). (Matt 19:28, and Luke 22:30)

We do not have to make reparations. We don't do penance. We don't have more sacrifices made for us. Christ's one sacrifice perfected us once for all. That is our only standing and claim to righteousness before God.

Well, you're in for a surprise. But getting into that would have us juggle too many things at a time. If the Catholic Church is what she says she is, then her teaching on penance is true. So it all depends on whether the Church is who and what she says she is.

However, These Popes, Cardinals, and other SSOEAs have foisted upon those under their care many falsehoods over time - speaking ex-cathedra. By what authority can a church that for most of the Middle ages was made up largely of SSOEAs engaging in Simony, Pluralism, Selling Indulgences have any claim to any authority?

Neither the bishops in ecumenical council nor the Pope speaking ex cathedra, has ever taught "simony", "pluralism", or "selling indulgences".

We weren't proclaimed so at Trent.

Do you have a particular pronouncement or declaration of Trent in mind? The Church has always recognized the distinction between knowingly apostasizing, and unknowingly becoming a part of a schismatic or heretical sect. Section #838 of the Catechism reads, "Those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."

-A8

If God directly told you that He is the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and you replied, "Upon what do you base your belief that you are the Creator of the heavens and the earth?", He might very well reply, "Upon my own testimony". And if you replied, "But that's circular reasoning", He might reply, "There is nothing greater than my own testimony. My word is truth. Appealing to my own word is more certain and more sure and more authoritative than appealing to anything else.
You did not read my post carefully. I admit to circular reasoning. I believe that Scripture is true and trustworthy because Scripture tells me so. I believe that the WORD is God because His Word tells me so. Yes, that is circular reasoning but it is also indeed fact. You, as I predicted, did not admit to circular reasoning.

Your argument is I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the sole authority in matters of faith because the Roman Catholic Church told me so. The Roman Catholic church, however, is NOT God. Churches are subject to error. That's what the Pauline epistles deal with. That's what Peter warns against. That's what John deals with in the first three chapters of Revelation. If you lived in John's day, and you lived in Pergamos, you would be referred to as being a part of the "church" at Pergamos. Presumably, as a duly appointed Bishop by the "Holy Roman" institution (which didn't exist as a point of overarching authority at the time, but for arguments sake we will say did), you would have been follow the doctrines of Balaam and would be condemned. If you lived in Corinth, you'd be dealing with factionalism with some saying they are Paul's decendents, some saying they are Peter's decendents, and some saying Apollos's decendents. Paul's answer is that we are all of Christ (not 'idiots, don't you know Jesus made Peter the head of the church, follow him.'). If you lived in Galatia, you would be dealing with legalism and some who had crept in and said you need something else in addition to faith for your salvation. In this case, it is circumcision. Paul was so angry with this suggestion that he suggested that those who were trying to enslave them by works again would go the whole way and castrate themselves! The point here is that in spite of Christ's prayer, the church has forever been divided - and yet, Paul nor Peter nor John ever say to these various churches that they aren't a part of the church any more or that they are out of fellowship with Christ's centralized institution in Rome. The church of Christ is universal. We don't have an argument with that. It is not haphazzardly scattered but is unified in Christ alone. If one has Christ Jesus as Savior one is a part of that church. If one follows the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and has a true relationship with Him, one IS in good fellowship with the church and Rome has nothing to say about it.

Denying that Christ's body subsists in an organization is NOT Gnosticism. What you are espousing is Materialism.

All man-made institutions have this cockamamie idea that we can somehow "Merit" salvation. All man-made religions include works as a prerequisite to Salvation. Only Biblical Christianity realizes that It is through Christ alone, exclusive of works, that we are saved. We show that salvation through our works, but we are not saved by them. Penance, Confession, and any host of Catholic practices are works. They are meant to confer grace upon a believer. Christ's grace was shed upon us from the cross that whoever believes already has eternal life. We could not be saved by keeping the law. Only Christ saves. Only Christ keeps. Not a bureaucracy in Rome. Solos Christos! Sola Scriptura. Sola Fide. Sola Gratia. Amen.