Perseverance doesn't necessarily mean struggle. Just "holding out." You could be bored on a 7-day cruise and have to "persevere" in boredom but lacking nothing.
The perseverance relates to keeping the faith. We are constantly bombarded with temptations and lust for things and people, and are constantly challenged by other groups and religions or systems that may seem "greener."
Thus, even if we are not being thrown tot he lions, we are challenged to keep our values, dignity and remain moral beings. the easiest thing to do would be to just say "I give up" and go for the forbidden fruits.
All I'm saying is that when I do a good thing, when I really don't feel like doing it, it "feels" like work to me, but it is really God working through me...Jesus ssays that His burden is light, so that means that perseverance DOES take "perceived" effort on our part.
It's not easy being a Christian if you really want to be a Christian. So, yes, it is an effort. We are reminded of this with every fasting period. Lets we take our faith for granted and drift away. It reminds us that cross comes before the crown.
We need maintenance because the system God set up has us ever growing closer to Him
The Bible says you must believe (and baptized). Protestants tell me after that they are saved. God converted their hearts, God gave them faith. God did everything. They are saved, for good. What else is there to do? If God wants you nearer, the Protestants will tell me God will do that too. You can't have God doing everything and all and that saying we have to grow closer. If that's how God set it up, than it's not our effort but our destiny and will happen whether we want it or not. It's not our "perseverance."
Kosta: Where does it say "of angles?" Angels are obligatory God's servants; they are not free.
FK: Yes, that is what I was attempting to say. Just as man is not free to thwart God's plan, neither are angels. So, when satan fell, God did not say "Oh NO, that ruins everything!"
Ggod is no respecter of angels? God is no respecter of men, because he gives to the righteous and the unrighteous. As far as I know, God doe snot give to fallen angels, but he does give to fallen men (because there is always hope for the fallen men to be saved, but none for the fallen angels).
Angelic rebellion is unforgivable because God created Angels as obligate servants and their rebellion is a complete reversal of their nature. Men was created in God's image and likeness, with limited dominion and capacity to forgive which the angles do not have. Man was not created as God's servant, but as God by grace. Man's rebellion is a corruption, not complete reversal of his nature. The rebellious angels are dead. We are sick. Big difference.
One possibility is that we learn from that suffering
God did not create suffering. Therefore suffering cannot be good. Suffering is the outcome of the fall world and is therefore an manifestation of evil, not learning. Given that we have been unable to stop suffering in our short history, suffering does not seem to have and lasting education effects.
How did I create the conditions?
I put you in the position of God. That's how. When you make a decision as a father, you don't have the foreknowledge and resources available to God, so your comparison is invalid.
Oh, I agree that we should never underestimate [satan]. Next to us he is very powerful. I just want to be on the record as NOT thinking that satan is some sort of "counter-God". satan has no ability to triumph over the one and only true God.
FK, the temptation is in our nature. It's part of our freedom. We need to stop blaming our weakness on the devil and live up to our own evil and reject it. Passing the buck never solved anything.
I would not worry about you giving satan more than he's due, never mind making him "counter-God." He gets all his "life" from us.
But, for however many people get to see [Armageddon], I would imagine it will be quite a large spectacle.
There will not be an Armageddon, FK. The devil is not "counter-God." At no point is the outcome in question. God doesn't need the final battle -- His is the Final Judgment!
Yes, that is exactly what we experience. Therefore, my side does not believe it is OK to go out and do whatever we want. That isn't what Christianity teaches, so we don't believe it.
You can't have God doing everything and all and that saying we have to grow closer. If that's how God set it up, than it's not our effort but our destiny and will happen whether we want it or not. It's not our "perseverance."
God doing everything includes bringing us closer. And yes, it is not our efforts that are worthy of merit, but rather God's. It is our perseverance because God makes it happen for us, not because we make it for ourselves. Reformers believe that the word "predestination" means what the word means. We do not believe, as the Apostolics do, that in effect, man "predestines" himself. That makes a mockery of the word.
God is no respecter of angels? God is no respecter of men, because he gives to the righteous and the unrighteous. As far as I know, God doe snot give to fallen angels, but he does give to fallen men (because there is always hope for the fallen men to be saved, but none for the fallen angels).
I figured out that we were using the word "respecter" differently. You were using it in the strict Biblical sense of giving sunlight, etc. to everyone. That's perfectly good. I was using it in the context of whether God "respects" the decisions of men, and shapes His plan around those decisions (apparently the Apostolic view since God predestines based on men's decision). I don't think THAT happens with either men or angels.
Man's rebellion is a corruption, not complete reversal of his nature. The rebellious angels are dead. We are sick. Big difference.
Rebellious angels are dead and have no hope. Lost men are also dead, but God has predestined some of them to be saved. There's the difference.
God did not create suffering. Therefore suffering cannot be good. Suffering is the outcome of the fall world and is therefore an manifestation of evil, not learning.
The Bible disagrees:
Heb 12:5-11 : 5 And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves,and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." 7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Therefore, we learn by going through the suffering of God's discipline.
We need to stop blaming our weakness on the devil and live up to our own evil and reject it. Passing the buck never solved anything.
Yes, I completely agree. Plus, we have Biblical proof that the devil can't "make" us do anything:
1 Cor 10:13 : 13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
God protects us against "forced" sin.
There will not be an Armageddon, FK. The devil is not "counter-God." At no point is the outcome in question. God doesn't need the final battle -- His is the Final Judgment!
What does one have to do with the other? I.e., why does satan have to be a "counter-God" for there to be a final battle? You are right that the outcome is not in question, but that is irrelevant to whether a battle will take place. EVERY battle in Biblical history was a forgone conclusion. It is not a matter of God "needing" a final battle, but only that He wanted one. In it, satan will be defeated and forever sealed in hell. That's how God wants it to go, and that's great with me.