[Mad Dawg]

The reason I maintain there is SOME sin in the second scenario is that there is IMHO what I think of as an "automatic" act of will. (Oxymoron anyone?) It's kind of analagous to the state of sin in that when I learn that I am a sinner, I've already sinned (darn it!) so on a way the question of free will is moot. I become aware of myself in a state and often in an act (even if it's only interior) of sin. [Basketball buzzer noise. Oops!]

Now in the case of the, if you will pardon the theological jargon, BABE!!!!: There is the natural male response to the curve of bust and hip. You know, the kind of thing that leads to self-inflicted whiplash injury as you drive through a university campus as the warm days of summer approach.

That's NOT a sin. I think it's at least partially hard wired, or a conditioned reflex. No intention, no foul; and in fact the very gift that leads to the whiplash also leads to a process which can end in life-long commitments reflecting the mystery of Christ and the Church. Mere "noticing" isn't, by my account, a sin, it's a gift.

But my impression is that the noticing is accompanied by at least a momentary flash of something that I use words like "endorsement", "choice", and "will" to describe. (Of course I myself am far too pure for this ever to have happened to me, I know this only by extensive research done to benefit humanity and glorify God.) And at least in my experience, from what I've heard one, so to speak, catches oneself in the act of endorsing the lust of the eyes or whatever .....

I think that's a sin, though venial. It is as it were lust of the eyes in the third degree, more analogous to accidental homicide than to murder one, "with malice aforethought". And it has the nature of sin in that it encourages us to slip into deeper sin and distracts us from the opportunity to practice the virtue of charity.

Jesus in the desert is, after 40 days, "anhungered". (Well DUH! I'm anhungered after 40 minutes!) But in my scheme he doesn't ever entertain the concept of working bad mojo to satisfy his hunger. If it were moi and if I had any mojo, bad or good, to work, I would be going, "Hmm, should I conjure up a Big Mac or not?"

IS that any more plausible?

In the sense that "venial sins" don't in themselves require the down elevator, you're right. MY own personal (but approved by the Dominican guys I hang with) idea of purgatory is much more therapeutic than legal in nature. Not only is sin a harm to our neighbor and an insult to God , but it harms us.

I used my arm and shoulder wrongly for a while. So I harmed them, and lost their use. I could do neither good nor evil with them. So I went to a place where lovely young ladies (see the discourse immediately preceding this one) made me do exercises to grow stronger so I could use them properly, put hot and cold wraps on them and anointed them with exotic oils -- and sometimes made me lie on the table and hurt me so much it was all I could do not to cry out!

At the end of this, I was able to use my arm and shoulder properly and to do good things, things which glorified God, helped my neighbor, and made me feel good.

So I view Purgatory was the place where I am healed from all the hurts I have done myself and made able to enjoy God to the fullest. Purgatory is merely the fringes of heaven and everyone there is happy and full of hope -- just as all my fellow sufferers were at the PT place. One of the nicest groups of people I've ever messed with.

And if this weren't already approaching Tolstoyan length, I'd develop the analogy further. Let's say, though, that one thing one can do upon noticing the curve of bust and thigh is say a little prayer for a blessing on the child of God who is sporting the aforementioned bust and hip.

[Forest Keeper]

... You know, the kind of thing that leads to self-inflicted whiplash injury as you drive through a university campus as the warm days of summer approach. That's NOT a sin. I think it's at least partially hard wired, or a conditioned reflex.

OK, I gotcha. We agree.

But my impression is that the noticing is accompanied by at least a momentary flash of something that I use words like "endorsement", "choice", and "will" to describe. (Of course I myself am far too pure for this ever to have happened to me, I know this only by extensive research done to benefit humanity and glorify God.)

AMEN! ME TOO! WHAT YOU SAID! :)

I think that's a sin, though venial. It is as it were lust of the eyes in the third degree, more analogous to accidental homicide than to murder one ...

Yes, I fully agree that somewhere there is a line that is easy to cross. And, Biblically it is clear that some sins are worse than others.

IS that any more plausible?

Yes, it is. And this isn't really a big deal point of contention I have with the RCC. You guys believe that real sin should be recognized and confessed. All good.

So I went to a place where lovely young ladies (see the discourse immediately preceding this one) made me do exercises to grow stronger so I could use [my arm and shoulder] properly, put hot and cold wraps on them and anointed them with exotic oils -- and sometimes made me lie on the table and hurt me so much it was all I could do not to cry out!

Yeah, well when I dislocated my shoulder they FROZE it and electrocuted it every time I went in for rehab. I didn't get no young lovelies and I didn't get no oils. What a rip! :) But I'm glad you're better now.