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To: Mad Dawg; HarleyD; kosta50
Harley: "You can’t say you [have] free will and then say that it’s limited."

Why not? The exercise of freedom is itself a kind of limitation. Exercising my freedom to spend my money on a Ferrari means I can't get a Maserati -- not this week, anyway .....

Yes, you are talking about choices, just as I have been with Kosta recently. God "could" poof both cars into existence, but we know for sure that He doesn't in all cases. He makes choices too.

But to get back to your point, MD, in going back through the posts, I think Harley was really zooming in on the true freedom that comes with salvation, as compared to the earlier state of the elect.

In truth, I have openly argued for a "limited free will" when referring to the lost. I have said that they DO have free will to sin, but are not free to do good in God's eyes, it is a limited free will. So, I must confess to contributing to muddying the waters when it comes to presenting the "Reformed view" on free will.

My side is often accused of having a "robot faith". So, I will put forth the idea that a lost person DOES have "free will", that is to sin. It is "limited". The response I always get is that THAT isn't true free will. However, now you and Kosta are both putting forth ideas of limited free will. This is new to me, so perhaps our disagreement is less on the concept of limited free will, but more on the degree. That is, for the lost person. Now, as for after salvation, while Harley and I would agree that neither of us is "free" to be elected President tomorrow, that we are TRULY freed from sin in the best sense that God has intended for His beloved children.

I still think that "free will" is the most loaded term on the entire Religion Forum and that ALL of us, on all sides, have to be SO careful how we use it when writing. I'm among the worst, so I can say that. :)

15,733 posted on 06/23/2007 8:43:28 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD
As regards the free will, God gave us freedom, which included the freedom of choice. That freedom did not come without a warning because a free choice reserves the possibility of making a wrong choice.

Unlimited freedom is only God's. The forbidden tree served as a reminder that we are not unlimited, but it also meant that we are free within our capacities to make free-will decisions.

Adam and Eve were perfectly free to reject the Serpent's offer. They were not forced to eat the forbidden fruit. They made a free decision to disobey.

15,734 posted on 06/23/2007 10:30:48 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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