I simply don't believe that we can count on such leadership to be infallible, ... as evidenced by Judas ... and not a few Catholic priests/popes and Protestant ministers.
The scriptures, on the other hand, are infallible ... and provide all that is necessary for the salvation of our souls.
Can you tell me where the Bible makes the statement that its individual components are infallible??? I think that is a presumption that forgets that it comes from the infallible CHURCH.
2 Timothy 3:15-16 says that the scriptures are able to make thee wise unto salvation ... and that they are God inspired, ... and that they are profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.Also, in John 10:11, Jesus says that scripture cannot be broken..
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I believe that the infallibility of scripture can be justified using these references.
On to another subject (since this will not be resolved, no doubt, even though it is INSTRUMENTAL on our differences), I would like to return back to your quote of 1 Cor 2:14-15 that you posted and I believe you take out of context (many Protestants believe this says something it doesn't and use it over and over).
I think if you read the first two chapters more carefully, you will find that Paul is saying that the spiritual person will judge the Gospel of the CROSS on something that is not visible, as a natural person would. You see, the Jews and Greeks who used their rational thought OR who believed in Bible alone did not buy the Gospel of the Cross. Paul talks about the PARADOX of the Cross: HOW does God's Wisdom work through the apparent defeat of Jesus on the Cross? To the Jews and Greeks who used their natural reasoning, it was foolish. To those who were spiritual (guided by the Spirit that transcends their own reason), they were able to judge the Gospel as from God.
THIS is the meaning of Paul, not that the "spiritual" man will understand the entire Bible led by the Spirit of God without any other help! I believe your interpretation goes way beyond what is meant by Paul, who continues in Chapter 3 with feeding the infant Christian on milk and so forth.
I will take another look at this, but I believe that what the text says is quite logical and reasonable.
Would it not follow that those who are more spiritual would be able to understand the expression of God, (Who is a Spirit, and Who’s kingdom is spiritual,) ... to a greater degree than those who are less spiritual ?
It is the consensus of the Church that the writings on the Old and New Testaments are ordained of God as scripture. It is one of the things that we all agree upon.
Yes, the Church does. And now, WHY do you believe that? Because you are part of the Church or because it happens to agree with what you already believe? Do you believe because the Church says so (and it is infallible - if not, she could be wrong about the Bible) or because your rational of the moment tells you that? That is the question ...
I believe it ... because the Church believes it. I believe that the approximate unity of the Church, on this issue, is sufficient to justify my belief in it.
This is seemingly one of those rather agenda-less issues in the Church. That all christians embrace this belief bolsters my faith in this area.
My faith is certainly bolstered by the recognition of what Christians agree upon, including ...God as the Creator.It may well be that these such areas of agreement ... constitute the entirety of the required body of faith within the Church.
Jesus as His Son.
Jesus’ earthly life given for the redemption of the souls of men (and women).
Jesus’ promise to save those that unite with Him by faith.
That Jesus will return to establish His kingdom
etc....
It may well be that those areas where we disagree ... are simply that ... areas where we disagree, having no greater significance than that.
But getting back to your question ... I do believe that the Church is infallibly led by God.
I believe that the Truth always resides within the Church.
That said, I do not believe that all Truth resides in any particular segment of the Church.
I believe that, in all issues relevant to the Church, we have the Truth.
Of course, it may be that we will have to hash it out to find it.
You responded : 2 Timothy 3:15-16 says that the scriptures are able to make thee wise unto salvation ... and that they are God inspired, ... and that they are profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.
That does not answer my question - what IS Scripture and WHO decides what it is? Is ALL "Scriptures" inspired by God? The Koran is called Scripture, as is the Hindu Sacred writings. What is Christian Scripture and who determined it??? The individual components do not indicate that they are Scritpures. For example, if you found Philemon separately as a man living in 100 AD, would you immediately say "hey, that is inspired by God". As you can see, my question addresses the makeup of the Canon more than the already-determined compilation.
Again, it is the Church that makes that determination, not the Bible itself.
Also, in John 10:11, Jesus says that scripture cannot be broken..
What does that mean? That the OT cannot be broken? And again, the question of what IS Scripture is left unanswered.
I believe it ... because the Church believes it.
Me too. But if the Church believes in a third state of existence called Purgatory, you refuse to believe that. Why? Forgive me, but does this not sound like YOU are the final judge on what is Truth and what is not Truth, despite the Scripture calling the CHURCH (not the individual) the pillar and foundation of the Truth?
But getting back to your question ... I do believe that the Church is infallibly led by God. I believe that the Truth always resides within the Church. That said, I do not believe that all Truth resides in any particular segment of the Church.
I agree with your first statement. I do not believe "ALL" the truth is resident in any particular segment, either. However, I do believe that we CAN find what God wants us to know in this era by turning to one particular place, one that is visible and one that has existed from the beginning. I do not believe that God has discontinued His protection of this organization. The Church of the Incarnation is like its leader, Jesus Christ: It is visible and human as well as spiritual and invisible. Thus, I will admit their is a component of the "invisible" Church. However, I believe this is reserved for those who do not reject the VISIBLE Church - perhaps they are unaware of the Visible Church or are not aware fully of its claims. But to pit the Visible AGAINST the Invisible is a mistake, in my opinion, because it does a disservice to its Head, who is visible and invisible WITHOUT dissension.
As always, it is a pleasure speaking with you.
Brother in Christ