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To: kosta50; HarleyD; .30Carbine
FK: "I said that we all pray "about" things we are sure of. I didn't say we pray "for" those things. My point was to illustrate that prayer is much more than supplication."

It doesn't matter, to pray means to solicit, beseech, supplicate...when we pray we pray because we want something, even if it is simply to be heard or acknowledged.

I completely disagree! :) In my view, while prayer certainly DOES include supplication, in no way is that the end of it. In my own prayer life, it is not uncommon at all for me to pray only in thanksgiving, without asking for anything at all. I see prayer as the primary means of communication between us and God. When a need is upon my heart, I do not hesitate to pray about or for it. However, when I have a praise, I will commonly say a short prayer in thanksgiving without asking for anything. I just cannot believe that is improper. :) I am repelled by the idea that the only time I should talk to God is when I want something from Him.

My objection was why pray if you believe God has predetermined everything and all.

Well, God HAS predetermined everything, but we don't know what that predetermination is. So we pray about it because the Bible tells us that prayer is good. I have never thought that my prayer has ever "changed" God's mind on an issue. My prayer is either in accordance with His will (in which case what I want happens) or it is not (I lose) or it is a "wait". With different prayers come different levels of confidence, but it is NEVER pointless. When I pray for the health of a sick relative, then who knows what God's plan is? However, when I pray for God to continue sanctifying me, I know that is a "no lose" prayer. :) The Bible SPECIFICALLY instructs us to pray. I need no other reason to do so.

If you are predestined to hell, no prayer will help you avoid it.

Correct. No one so predestined is able to pray anyway.

If you are destined to heaven, no prayer will change that either.

Also correct. Prayer is for OUR benefit during our lives here on earth. With more prayer comes a better quality of life while we are here.

And since you are certain of your resurrection and salvation, aren't you just making mindless repetitions with prayers?

You ask a valid question but no, I don't see prayer as being mindless, because I don't see prayer as being about changing things. It is communication with God, which He says He wants, and is always good. Communication with God is something that WE need as believers. It helps sustain us throughout our lives. Along with God commanding it, that makes it worthwhile.

15,691 posted on 06/19/2007 8:07:15 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; .30Carbine

Except to be heard! You want God to acknowledge your prayer. Surely you don't pray to a wall.

Why is it good if it cannot change something, or fulfill something other than what was determined?

But what's the point of it? It doesn't change anything (according toy reformed theology). It doesn't merit anything. It doesn't earn you anything. 

But you will be sanctified whether you pray for it or not if God predestined you to be sanctified. If not, no amount of prayer will result in your sanctification.

That's because the Jews believed that prayer does change things; that sacrifices can atone for our sins, that on occasion God will grant us something we were not going to get. From the Jewish point of view, prayer makes a lot of sense, so it is not surprising that the Bible says we ought to pray. But form the Reformed POV it does nothing to change things.

Chances are those who choose satan as their master will be praying to him and not to God.

How so? What does it change, what does it accomplish? What doe it get you that God didn't already decide to give you? How does it make your quality of life better?

Really? And your prayers that He may continue to sanctify you is not about change?

Then the Jews would have called it "talking to God" and not "praying to God." The word prayer intrinsically means to supplicate. To communicate is not a prayer. A prayer is a communication of a supplication, not just empty chatter. We communicate with people and animals. What do you communicate with God? Baseball scores?

We communicate on the FR, back and forth, trying to outwit each other. Certainly that's not the "communication" we have with God (or at least I should hope it's not!).

15,693 posted on 06/19/2007 9:02:24 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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