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To: Forest Keeper
The point of it is that we cannot come to God on our own.

We agree on that, but I believe "total depravity" means we do nothing WITH God. God does everything in this construct. Our choice is nowhere in the mix, which makes God the sole decider of whom will be saved, although God "desires ALL men to be saved". As a result, I cannot agree that God does not take into consideration our own choice, even though it is imperfect and cannot come to God by itself.

I believe we do possess the desire, latently, to unite with God. We all desire happiness and we all enjoy beauty and truth and goodness, at least imperfectly. Our position is wounded, which still maintains that we cannot come to God alone.

Regards

15,596 posted on 06/07/2007 4:57:15 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus
FK: "The point of it is that we cannot come to God on our own."

We agree on that, but I believe "total depravity" means we do nothing WITH God. God does everything in this construct. Our choice is nowhere in the mix, which makes God the sole decider of whom will be saved, although God "desires ALL men to be saved".

Yes, this is fair and accurate. I believe that the "all men" call is an outward one and not a decree.

[continuing:] As a result, I cannot agree that God does not take into consideration our own choice, even though it is imperfect and cannot come to God by itself.

Why would an omnipotent God take into consideration the choices of fallible men? That would be to relinquish omnipotence. You are saying, by my estimation, that God doesn't care WHICH of us comes to Him. You say that He graces everyone the same, gives everyone the same chance, etc., and whatever happens, happens. This is your idea of a loving, omnipotent God? To me, that would be a negligent, uncaring God. :) If He really IS omnipotent then He should get exactly what He wants.

I believe we do possess the desire, latently, to unite with God.

This is the essence of our honest difference on this.

[continuing:] We all desire happiness and we all enjoy beauty and truth and goodness, at least imperfectly.

There's the rub in that in the imperfection lies desire. IN CHRIST, humans desire happiness, beauty, truth, goodness, etc., but when lost, humans only "think" they desire those things, when they are sorely mistaken.

15,682 posted on 06/19/2007 12:07:04 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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