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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; HarleyD; Kolokotronis; Quix; kawaii; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; ...
As to "when" the soul becomes sinful, I would say that it was contemplated that way from before the foundations when God first "knew" us

So, God gives us sinful souls? That's amazing! If this is what the Reformed believe, it is the best kept secret because I never heard or read any reformed Christians take ownership of such a statement.

How do you read Paul when he lays out what I'm saying in no uncertain language?

Everybody and his brother reads +Paul differently! If God chose you from "before foundations" then it's not incumbent on you accepting Christ; you are not accepting Christ; you are simply being told that Christ really accepted you -- that's what your theology teaches.

If a prospect asked you why he needs God based on the Orthodox view of original sin, I honestly have no idea what you would say. I know that you know that you need God for salvation/theosis but I don't know how convincing a case one of you could make to someone who is unsure if he even needs God at all.

About as convincing as someone telling you that your are "elect" and Joe next to you is not! You have no proof one way or another, self-delusion notwithstanding.

As to what an Orthodox would tell you why one needs God, the answer would be (without any proof likewise): so that you may be healed, since the disease that you have inherited (no fault of your own) from your ancestral parents will kill you.

Once you know, the choice is yours. Like I said, one cannot miss and wish for something he or she doesn't know. But once you know you are spiritually ill, you must choose whether to seek a spiritual physician or not. People who are diagnosed with life threatening conditions usually react with denial. This is no different.

God never fails in this, once He touches the choice is always the same

God doesn't fail, but we do, even those who received grace. Even they can be said to "have fallen from grace" [Gal 5:4]

15,466 posted on 06/01/2007 9:42:40 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; annalex; Kolokotronis; Quix; kawaii; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights
So, God gives us sinful souls? That's amazing! If this is what the Reformed believe, it is the best kept secret because I never heard or read any reformed Christians take ownership of such a statement.

Actually, I look at this not so much as God gives us "sinful souls"; rather that our soul nature are incapable of doing good on its own. A biblical (and most obvious) example of this Satan himself; a being created by God, perfect in every aspect, yet destined to fall from grace with God's knowledge. Left to our own devices, our souls will fall by nature.

15,467 posted on 06/02/2007 3:18:12 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: kosta50; annalex; HarleyD; Kolokotronis; Quix; kawaii; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; blue-duncan
So, God gives us sinful souls? That's amazing! If this is what the Reformed believe, it is the best kept secret because I never heard or read any reformed Christians take ownership of such a statement.

I didn't say God gives us sinful souls, I said that God contemplated them that way. When He knew us before the foundations, He knew us to have sinful natures. It comes down to the physical mechanics of how original sin is transferred from parent to child. Does it go to nature, but not soul? Are nature and soul the same thing? I don't know how that works mechanically. I know that you don't believe in original sin, but I also believe that you don't think that we are born in the same state that Adam was created in. SO, we face the same question.

15,548 posted on 06/06/2007 12:35:13 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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