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To: Forest Keeper
Well, one of my favorite metaphors is "the reaction has become self-sustaining", aka "the straw the broke the camel's back".

I don't think anybody much in those days "knew" that killing members of a heretical sect was wrong. Look at what goes on among Muslims today in that part of the world.

Yes, with God's patient hammering into our heads, we have finally doped it out and reached the "Duh!" moment, but it took a long time for even some humans to get that idea.

SO yeah, if Paul had had a heart attack instead of a vision on the road to Damascus, I guess he'd be in the warm place now.

BUT, I still want to say that being in the state of sin is not JUST evil everywhere. It's more like everything out of joint, out of sync.

By grace (IMHO) Paul was open to God. God was working on him. How trickily God works ("with the crooked You are wily") to convert us without frying our brains! Paul wanted to do God's will (was 180 degrees out of phase on that ...), and, I think knew somehow that he was doing a lousy job of being a son of the Covenant. Maybe even his desperation at his own inescapable sinfulness contributed to the anger and hostility he felt toward us.

Then, I can see a scrupulous thinker wondering,"Suppose I'm just really, really wrong," or thinking, "My sinfulness is so wretched that only an innocent man could pay the price of it ... uh, wait a minute! Oh. My. God."

I'm suggesting, I guess, that God works slowly and carefully, and that He had His eye on Paul and finally finally got him to take the bait, and rejoicing reeled him in.

15,464 posted on 06/01/2007 6:39:48 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.)
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To: Mad Dawg
I don't think anybody much in those days "knew" that killing members of a heretical sect was wrong. Look at what goes on among Muslims today in that part of the world.

But Muslims are not pious Jews. The Jews had the Law, which said to not murder (an innocent). I cannot recall OT Jews going around on their own authority slaughtering non-Jews. To the contrary, God wanted them to be a peculiar people in the good sense. But I agree with you that Saul may well have not understood that what he was doing was wrong at the time. As I said, he SHOULD have known.

SO yeah, if Paul had had a heart attack instead of a vision on the road to Damascus, I guess he'd be in the warm place now.

Yes, exactly. I think he says as much himself.

Then, I can see a scrupulous thinker wondering,"Suppose I'm just really, really wrong," or thinking, "My sinfulness is so wretched that only an innocent man could pay the price of it ... uh, wait a minute! Oh. My. God." I'm suggesting, I guess, that God works slowly and carefully, and that He had His eye on Paul and finally finally got him to take the bait, and rejoicing reeled him in.

Well, I think that your description is truly the way most of us experience our conversions. It is valid. And, IMHO, if there is ONE guy in the Bible who doesn't follow this model, I would say it was Saul. :) As I understand it, he was on the road to Damascus in order to hunt down more Christians. I think he was literally ZAPPED, like a lightning bolt from cloud #9. From the text, I don't get the impression that he was cajoled at all. I think he had an industrial strength attitude adjustment against his will. There's nothing like total blindness to get a guy's attention. :) Plus we are told that Paul did not learn the faith by men, it was directly taught by Christ. So, I don't think Paul was free to say "no thanks". His heart was changed in an instant, rather than slowly, and he wanted to succumb.

15,547 posted on 06/05/2007 10:01:09 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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