No, choice is something that God has because different outcomes cannot be simultaneously true. Christ came to die for our sins, but He was not compelled to do so. It was a choice. It has nothing to do with whether He already knows what His choice IS, of course He does, but it does have to do with our reality versus some other reality we would now be experiencing had God made other choices. "God's Plan" is a laundry list of choices.
Does God have to choose between different possibilities or did He make the world exactly as designed.
God made the world exactly as He designed by making many choices.
God makes no choices, FK. He just does everything right the first time.
Every possibility that exists has laid before God. Among them all, God has chosen the existence that we know. Indeed it was His first choice, and it was right.
Where does God say "I want you to love me?"
Many places, but here are two:
Ex. 20:5-6 : 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand [ generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Mark 12:28-30 : 28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" 29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
I don't think it gets any clearer than this. These are Commandments. The intent is obvious.
FK: "I wouldn't say that's why He created Adam."
Then why did He?
I can't be certain but we are told something about it:
Ex 6:7 : I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God, who brought you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians.
God stated that He wanted to be OUR God. He wanted to love His children and He wanted them to love Him. He wanted this loving relationship. Creating Adam furthered this desire.
FK: "The Bible specifically tells us that God predestined that Esau would sell his birthright, and so obviously God knew."
This is one of those parts of the Bible that cannot possibly be true. There is no reason whatsoever why God would hate Esau unless Esau did something God did not foresee which is impossible.
That doesn't follow at all. Why would God's hate HAVE to be based on a surprise? satan never surprised God, yet I hope you believe that God hates him.
God has no reason to hate Esau, as Esau did nothing God did not already know before it happened, and by His permission, or because Esau had no choice but to do what he did, and was simply doing God's will.
Of course God already knew what was going to happen. What does that have to do with hate vs. love? God hates sin. God loves His children. God did not choose Esau to be among His children, so God hated him, just like everyone else who winds up in Hell. God USED Esau for His purposes in the furtherance of His plan. I know this sounds harsh, but it is God's right. He is the potter and can do what He wants with His creations.
Don't you think it's a little strange that God would hate Esau for selling his birthright and not Adam for ruining the whole Creation? Or Judas for selling out Christ? Or Pontius Pilate for turning Him over to the Jews when he could have pardoned Him?
No, not at all. I don't know why God chooses to save some and not others. I only know that He does.
But, of course, in your theology all this happened because God "wanted" it. If He wanted it and He gets what He wants, than there is no reason whatsoever for Him to hate anyone, good or evil, for "doing His will," especially Esau!
It is not like God was "disappointed" in Esau because he let Him down or something. Esau was simply not chosen to be among God's children. Therefore, God "hates" him and he winds up in Hell. God did get what He wanted, but that is beside the point to what you are talking about. God simply did not want Esau to be saved, and so He did not grace Esau sufficiently to come to a saving faith. Consequently, Esau remained a lost soul. God is sovereign and has this right.
And while you are at it, explain to me how can Love hate?
While God encompasses (defines) all aspects of true love, those are not His limits, as you seem to suggest. God is also Justice and He is also Wrath. When God defeats satan in the end times, are you going to call that an act of love? It will be for some, but not for all. I think you are unnecessarily limiting God here.
Did Esau have a choice of not doing that in your theology? Or course not! So, he was (pre)destined to do what God wanted in His plan, which involved Esau selling his birthright, not because he wanted to but because God did, right?
That's basically right according to my beliefs, but I have to add that Esau genuinely wanted to do what he did. God did not change his mind toward the negative. God simply left him alone to such a degree that Esau would make the stupid choice, in furtherance of God's plan. This is EXACTLY why I think the comparison God chose for us adults is so brilliant. He calls us His children. We are indeed CHILDREN, who do not know what is best for us, as smart as we think we are.
We who are parents know full well how much our own children NEED us to provide for, protect, and defend them. For us know-it-alls, not only is it similar, it is even to a greater degree with God. We are utterly lost without Him directly leading the way. Our degrees in higher education are worthless here. We are no more than lost sheep who need a Shepherd. Thank God we both have a Perfect One.
But in your theology there can be no disobedience to God!?
No, I would never say this. It is a subtle point, but you have brought it up enough times that I really want you to know what I say about this. :) I believe that "obedience" is between a master and a subject. I want my son to obey me because I am his master, for now. :) However, if a non-subject happens to do what a master wanted, that does not count as "obedience". Here is an example:
A few years ago we had a fox who roamed our neighborhood. At the same time we apparently had a mouse problem in the garage because the dog food bag was being bitten into. So, for a few nights I left the garage door open. Suddenly, for whatever reason, we had no more problem with the dog food! :) Now from your reasoning you would have to say that the fox "obeyed" me, and I disagree with that. I did not order the fox to do anything. I left it alone and arranged opportunity. I'm saying that's what God does too.
Remember, God is always in control whether we obey or disobey. Either way we can only do His will, right? Otherwise God couldn't get what He wants, right?
God is always in control, yes. But that does not ALWAYS mean that the actor does his deeds at the behest of, or FOR, the controller. It means he does his deeds in accordance with the controller's wishes. These are two ENTIRELY different concepts.
Can you imagine if Esau decided not to sell his birthright!? Or if Judas said to himself, "30 pieces of silver, I don't need that..."? Or if Adam spanked Eve and chased away the Serpent instead of eating the fruit?!?
No, I cannot imagine those things. God wanted what He wanted, and so it happened. There was no accident.
FK: "God used [Judas and the rest] by removing Himself from them to that degree necessary to guarantee that His plan would be accomplished exactly as designed."
Were they under grace? Are you suggesting they had indwelling Spirit? But be it as you make things up, by "removing" Himself from them, He did not just "allow" things to happen, but created conditions under which they will happen for certain, so the determining factors are not the peons running around on earth but God. Where is the guilt of the peons in all this?
As I said in another post after you posted this, I do believe that God sustains even the lost to some level. But no, I do not think these people ever had the indwelling Holy Spirit. There is no room at the Inn for God and satan to share a body. ...... The guilt of the peons depends on the duty one thrusts upon God to act and protect in certain ways. If you believe that God OWES us protection from satan then you can lay our faults upon Him. Or, if you believe that the simple fact of creation itself imposes a duty upon God to offer a free will choice out of trouble, then I suppose you can blame Him again for when we blow it. I do not choose to do that. :) God is sovereign, He makes choices, and the world today is EXACTLY as it should be by His design.
FK: "And in your theology God loves the vast majority of people so much that He stands aside and does nothing to protect them while they hurl themselves off a cliff to their doom."
God does nothing? You mean as in spoon-feeding them? Are you saying "it's not faaaaair?" :)
No, I'm just saying that under your theology God doesn't REALLY love them. I'm the one who says that God doesn't owe us "fair". You are the one who places a duty on Him if you believe that God owes everyone a "chance" at being saved.
The Bible clearly tells you that God does not compel. He is not dealing with "children" but with rational human beings that he equipped with reason.
Well, I commented on this earlier, but why would you suppose that God would choose this metaphor to repeat over and over in the Bible if it really didn't fit with reality? When we deal with other adults we deal with peers. Should we think of God like that? When we deal with children we know who is the boss and who is in control. I think that the Biblical comparison is perfect.
For God everything is possible. Outcomes are His creation, not His choice. Choices are in the realm of uncertainty. Whatever God does it is certain. He doesn't choose; He creates. "Let there be light" is not a choice between light and dark; it's a command. "We shall make man" is not a choice but a purpose-driven act; God was not choosing between making man or not making a man. There is no doubt in what God does. And if God wants different outcomes to be simultaneously true, He can make that too; He is not constrained by your logic. You have to think apophatically in order to know what God is not so that you may perceive what God is.