Experimental psychology and even common sense tell us that we can all be driven to violence.
It just means that because of the Fall, we are all born into sin
We are? How so? Is the body by itself sinful? Or is our soul sinful? And if so, is it not God who gives us the soul? At which point does it become sinful? It could not be in the act of procreation in marriage because marriage is an institution of God; procreation in marriage is not a sinful act.
No one is born into sin or with sin. Sin is something we must commit to be accountable, just as you believe that you must accept Christ in order to be "saved" (which makes it incumbent upon your act of "acceptance," talk about man-mediated salvation).
An alcohol or drug-addicted infant is not guilty for its addiction, but is born with a devastating consequence of its mother's sin of alcohol or drug abuse. In anything, that infant is a victim of sin, as we all are born victims of sin.
Also, that we cannot choose God on our own.
Certainly we can, once God knocks on our hearts. How can you choose something or miss something until you know it exists?!? But once you know, you can choose.
Now Kosta, Bro . . . a word of caution . . .
wouldn’t want you to bloody your head on the hyper-Calvinist granite wall silly notion that humans have 0.000000000000000% choice in their relationship with God.
Remember . . . Calvinist construe the whole universe, God included . . . and certainly God and lesser cogs in the vast machine . . .
as mere robotized, mechanized, pin-balls in the vast great pin ball machine in the sky.
I assume that all of them who earnestly seek God and Love Him will have their theology adjusted IN HIS TIME . . . but in the mean time . . . please avoid the bloody cranium syndrome when attempting dialogue with hyper-Calvinists.
LOL.
Experimental psychology and even common sense tell us that we can all be driven to violence.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. God protects all non axe-murderers from being that, even if they are ultimately lost. :)
FK: "It just means that because of the Fall, we are all born into sin."
We are? How so? Is the body by itself sinful? Or is our soul sinful? And if so, is it not God who gives us the soul? At which point does it become sinful? It could not be in the act of procreation in marriage because marriage is an institution of God; procreation in marriage is not a sinful act.
This goes right back to the C.S. Lewis quote doesn't it? :) I don't really consider the body to be an independent entity capable of individual sin on its own. So, I would say that the soul is sinful as we own it when born. God does give us the soul as tempered by His Justice. There is nothing "unfair" about this since God has no duty to give us "unblemished" souls.
As to "when" the soul becomes sinful, I would say that it was contemplated that way from before the foundations when God first "knew" us. So, all people are born with a default of going to Hell, without Divine intervention. God saves His children, and the rest are lost.
No one is born into sin or with sin. Sin is something we must commit to be accountable, just as you believe that you must accept Christ in order to be "saved" (which makes it incumbent upon your act of "acceptance," talk about man-mediated salvation).
How do you read Paul when he lays out what I'm saying in no uncertain language? It is clear that Paul and I are of a single mind on this. That is good enough for me. :)
When you talk about it being "incumbent" on us Reformers to accept Christ, you are projecting your own requirements upon us. You're mixing apples and oranges. To us, God ordained who would accept from the foundations, so from His POV, the acceptance is pro forma. For us, as we experience it of course, it is a big deal. Praise be to God. Man has nothing to do with the saving, he just gets the beautiful moment of experiencing it.
Original sin is a status, or like a default. It just means that all things being equal we are headed for Hell without God's saving grace. Besides being just plain true, this understanding helps to convince the prospect of his NEED for God. If a prospect asked you why he needs God based on the Orthodox view of original sin, I honestly have no idea what you would say. I know that you know that you need God for salvation/theosis but I don't know how convincing a case one of you could make to someone who is unsure if he even needs God at all.
An alcohol or drug-addicted infant is not guilty for its addiction, but is born with a devastating consequence of its mother's sin of alcohol or drug abuse. In anything, that infant is a victim of sin, as we all are born victims of sin.
I don't look at it as a matter of guilt, just a matter of fact. We are born as slaves to sin. That's the bad news. However, God has this in store for His children, etc.
FK: "Also, that we cannot choose God on our own."
Certainly we can, once God knocks on our hearts. How can you choose something or miss something until you know it exists?!? But once you know, you can choose.
This is certainly one of our biggest disagreements in terms of importance. What do you mean by "know it exists"? To me it takes a specific act of God before that even happens. Once God touches an elect so that he "knows", then he chooses for Christ. God never fails in this, once He touches the choice is always the same.