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To: kosta50; jo kus; annalex; Kolokotronis; .30Carbine; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
FK: "Well, if we put all this together now, it appears you are saying that when Christ healed others, it was due to the Father's response to prayers from Christ's human nature. HOWEVER, when Christ arose, it was due to Christ's divine nature, somehow apart from the Father."

The Resurrection was NOT in response to prayer of His human nature, FK; it was not an act of humility, or obedience, which was so essential in His earthly ministry. It was an act of His divine power. He never doubted His Resurrection. There was no need to pray for that.

When you say that He never needed to pray about the Resurrection because He never doubted, what does that say about the things He DID pray about? I don't think Jesus ever prayed out of genuine doubt. From His existence at the time, I think He prayed to commune with the Father and Spirit, and to set an example for us as to what we should do also.

The Fathers who formulated the Creed were careful to stress that He rose and not to repeat +Paul's misleading words that He was raised.

What's the difference? Why is this significant, with the understanding that "He was raised" is not exclusionary of Christ's Divine power? No one thinks that Christ was needful or dependent for help. Neither did Paul.

If His healing were divine interventions of His own, then what would be the purpose of His human nature and ministry, FK? To show us that God can do anything? He didn't come to teach us that in order to believe we must see.

Jesus says flat out in John 20:29 - "Because you have seen me, you have believed; ...". Eventually, it WORKED for the disciples. Of course He goes on to say that the rest of us who believe are blessed, having not seen. But there was still a point to it.

One purpose of His human nature and ministry was to show us a God we humans could "identify with" and "touch". Rather than lightning bolts from Mount Olympus, we know about a God who condescended to take human form and perform miracles Himself to convert the first Christians. This system worked because wherever He went people marveled at Him. This part of the plan was intended to be short-lived, but it certainly did get the ball rolling. :) I believe the Bible is clear that Jesus claimed to be God. He didn't mince any words, so when people saw His miracles it would have been fine for them to assume He accomplished them on His own authority. Jesus plainly CLAIMED power and authority.

How did the Apostles heal if not through the purity of their prayers? Hocuspocus?

This does not appear to mesh with the general Apostolic belief that great power was voluntarily turned over to the Apostles and their chosen successors by God without prayer by them as a catalyst. If the Apostles healed by "perfect prayer", then is the same true of priests and the absolution of sin? IOW, do all priests validly (and supernaturally) forgive sins through perfect prayer? I don't see how this would be possible since some priests are unworthy. Yet, in their cases, the imperfect prayer still counts as efficacious.

How could BEV Mary conceive if not through the purity of her complete submission to the will of God, not because she was forced, but of her own free will and free of any doubt, ego or pride?

"BEV" Mary conceived through the purity of God's good, pleasing, and perfect will, not through the "yeah, OK" of some young teenager. :) She wasn't forced, her heart was changed just as it is in all believers. She wanted to obey God, and said OK because God specifically ordained that she would.

15,190 posted on 05/25/2007 2:40:42 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex; Kolokotronis; .30Carbine; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
When you say that He never needed to pray about the Resurrection because He never doubted, what does that say about the things He DID pray about?

Do you pray for your resurrection? Or are you sure of it?

While you are at this, tell me why did Jesus pray? Why do we pray?

What's the difference? Why is this significant, with the understanding that "He was raised" is not exclusionary of Christ's Divine power?

It's extremely significant! If he did not raise Himself of His own power, than He is not fully God, but somoene who depends on God's power. The trinitarian error of +Paul's is as clear as glass here: when he wrote this he either did not consider Christ to be fully God, or he tought of Christ as a lesser God, a divine Son subordained to God.

Jesus says flat out in John 20:29 - "Because you have seen me, you have believed; ..."

He did (as a matter of fact, not praise) but He didn't come to this earth for that purpose. We are not converted by seeing miracles. Even Satan can apprar as the Angel of Light, so perceptions can be deceiving.

Rather than lightning bolts from Mount Olympus, we know about a God who condescended to take human form and perform miracles Himself to convert the first Christians.

That's not what the Bible says. The Bible mentiones that God will inscribe Himself in the hearts of Israel, which is the OT announcement of the New Covenant repeated in Heb 8. he says nothing of miracles. If God could harden Pharao's heart, He surely could have softened the hearts of the elect without miracles.

But we have come to rationalize that now we don't need miracles to believe. Clearly that's becase no one is raising people from the dead nowadays. If people were being raised from the dead, the churches wouldn't be able to accommodate all the new believers. We are all running on empty, believing we have enough gas to keep us going for ever.

This does not appear to mesh with the general Apostolic belief that great power was voluntarily turned over to the Apostles and their chosen successors by God without prayer by them as a catalyst

I don't know who general belief that is; it sounds like hocuspocus to me. God's uncreated energies are the ones that accomplish His work. Those hwo are holy participate in those uncreated energies through prayer and priesthood. They are merely the means with which these energies are conduicted.

The efficacy of a priest's prayer or sacrament is not affected by his character flaws. For no priest is free form sin. Whether a pilot is a rotten character and a wife abuser does not invalidate his piloting skills. he may be a rotten human being but he may be a perfect pilot.

Everything a priest does involves a prayer. The priest has no power of his own to bless or to forgive. It is the HS that blesses and forgives and not the priest. He can only petition the HS to bless you and forgive you. The priest does not change the bread and wine; the HS does.

A priest's prayer does not have to be perfect. As long as he is performing his duty as a priest his prayer is what it was supposed to be. In other words, in the performance of his priestly duties.

"BEV" Mary conceived through the purity of God's good, pleasing, and perfect will, not through the "yeah, OK" of some young teenager. :) She wasn't forced, her heart was changed just as it is in all believers. She wanted to obey God, and said OK because God specifically ordained that she would

I feel so bad that you are so blind, FK, as to not see the falsity of your reasoning which is something like this: If you watch this light, you will be getitng sleeply...now that I have hypnotized you, you will believe what I tell you to believe and when you wake up you will "want" to believe me, all on your "free" will.

It's so pathetic that you believe God changes our hearts unilaterally, "enslaving" us without us knowing it...You ruly believe that we "want" God when in fact he merely reprogrammed us and we have nothing to with it whatsoever.

15,201 posted on 05/25/2007 8:47:12 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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