[kosta50]

One bottom line question is at what level (dogma, doctrine, discipline) does heresy come into play?

Heresy, by definition is any teaching that denies the essential elements of the Christian faith, as contained in the Symbol of Faith (i.e. the Creed) finalized in 381 AD

I believe in One God, Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.
And in One Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages.
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father, through whom all things were made.
For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became Man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and He suffered and was buried. On the third day He rose according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I expect the resurrection of the dead; and the life of the age to come.
Amen.

Dogma does not evolve and does not change. Dogma is a statement of truth known to the Church, expressed by a general or local council, in response to heresies. Note: the Catholic Church departed from this after the Schism and proclaimed dogma without clear and present heresies.

Doctrine can evolve but not change. One can disagree with individual fathers' speculations (theoogical hypotheses or theologoumenna) but not with consensus patrum because that represents the collective knowledge and unanimous doctrinal agreement of the whole Church.

Individual fathers are fallible. The Church as a whole isn't.

[hosepipe]

[.. Heresy, by definition is any teaching that denies the essential elements of the Christian faith, as contained in the Symbol of Faith (i.e. the Creed) finalized in 381 AD ..]

Its NOT what you believe about things but WHO you are that counts..

"You MUST be born again"- Jesus;... NOT believe any particular dogma. its who you ARE not what you believe.. according to JESUS..

Any that says DIFFERENT is a heretic.. Which is O.K.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "One bottom line question is at what level (dogma, doctrine, discipline) does heresy come into play?"

Heresy, by definition is any teaching that denies the essential elements of the Christian faith, as contained in the Symbol of Faith (i.e. the Creed) finalized in 381 AD:

I agree with everything in the Creed, with the possible exception of the intent of the Baptism clause:

"I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

I presume this refers to Acts 2:38, and of course we all know that I do not believe that baptism is salvific. The key word in this verse is "for". In Greek, "eis". It has multiple legitimate meanings, just as "for" does for us. For example:

Matt 12:41 : The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.

The word here "at" is also "eis" and clearly means here "because of". So, it's a matter of interpretation. But in any event, the point is that while I basically agree with the Creed, I still get called a heretic all the time for disagreeing with issues not covered at all in the Creed! :) So, what you're saying confuses me a little.

Dogma does not evolve and does not change. Dogma is a statement of truth known to the Church, expressed by a general or local council, in response to heresies. Note: the Catholic Church departed from this after the Schism and proclaimed dogma without clear and present heresies.

Thanks, I was unaware of the connection to heresies as a prerequisite.

Doctrine can evolve but not change. One can disagree with individual fathers' speculations (theological hypotheses or theologoumenna) but not with consensus patrum because that represents the collective knowledge and unanimous doctrinal agreement of the whole Church.

OK, then in the Orthodox Church, has the consensus patrum manifested itself since the 7 Councils? I gather that the Councils proclaimed Dogma, and I'm trying to understand the difference with doctrine. Has doctrine actually evolved in Orthodoxy?