[HarleyD]

Everything you know about Jesus and the gospel you know because someone told you.

We're all like this, pilgrims on a journey. It is our business to sort out the mess.

So? You apparently are working under the assumption of 'sola scriptura' which is not itself taught anywhere in Scripture.

Scripture says, "Thy words have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee." It doesn't say, "The Canons of the Church I will obey that I might go to heaven."

That was never a dogma of the Church, and infallibility applies only to dogmas.

It was issued by the Pope and peddled by the Church. It was enough of a dogma that the Council of Trent rescinded it. I don't believe the Church returned the money, did they?

No....You are working with the Calvinistic conception of assurance, which requires that one knows that one is elect [for glory]. The Catholic conception of assurance is the present knowledge that if one were to die now one would [eventually] enjoy the eternal vision of God.

For non-reformed theologies..."at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God -- and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place." - D.A. Carson

The difference is Catholics rest upon maintaining good works for their salvation. In ten years there is a possibility, however slight, that a person could somehow slip up, fall from grace and be lost forever. Catholics cannot claim election simply because they haven't reached the end of the trail.

Reformers believe that God watches over our salvation and we trust Him that He won't let us slip up. This seems to be more in keeping with the writings of the apostles who wrote to "the elect".

Of course, your statement does raise the question that if an infant Catholic were to die right now, are they assured of their salvation? How about an adult? If they are assured (even an infant) then aren't they one of the elect? If not then your statement is incorrect.

[adiaireton8]

Scripture says, "Thy words have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee."

Indeed. I hope you know that Catholics fully affirm that verse (and every other verse in the Bible).

It doesn't say, "The Canons of the Church I will obey that I might go to heaven."

I hope you know that the argument from silence is a fallacy.

You cannot evaluate whether 'sola scriptura' is true or not while at the same time depending on 'sola scriptura' as the basis of grounds for the evaluation. That is not intellectually honest.

It was enough of a dogma that the Council of Trent rescinded it

Enough of a dogma? Such a statement shows that you have no idea what the term 'dogma' means in a Catholic context. I recommend Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

This seems to be more in keeping with the writings of the apostles who wrote to "the elect".

You seem to be assuming that Scripture usese a univocal conception of election. Jimmy Akin shows here that there is good reason to distinguish 'election to grace' and 'election to glory'.

Of course, your statement does raise the question that if an infant Catholic were to die right now, are they assured of their salvation?

Validly baptized infants, being infants, ordinarily have no beliefs or knowledge, and hence have no assurance. It is *we* who can have assurance concerning the fate of validly baptized infants.

How about an adult? If they are assured (even an infant) then aren't they one of the elect? If not then your statement is incorrect.

I think your question here is presuming a univocal notion of election. See my reference above to the Akin article that distinguishes two distinct conceptions of election used in Scripture. As I said earlier in this thread, the Catholic conception of assurance does not depend upon knowing one's election [to glory] status. Adult Catholics can be assured [using the Catholic conception of assurance that I defined previously] of their salvation, even while not knowing whether they are elect for glory.

-A8