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To: Risky-Riskerdo
Roman Catholicism does NOT follow what the first and second century Church taught and practiced. Most of Roman Catholicism developed after the 6th century.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the Church Fathers, who write about the Real Presence of the Eucharist, the Sacrifice of the Mass, the veneration and prayers for intercessions from saints and Mary, the belief that Baptism saves and can be administered to infants, and other such things. Your "6th century development" is not backed up by what information we have available.

We've been here all along, as The Church.

Where are the distinctive "Protestant" theological constructs, such as Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide? Where are the "Protestant" communities? Which orthodox Christian wrote about that before the first millenium expired? To explore history is to find out that Protestantism is a late invention of men.

Regards

15,030 posted on 05/23/2007 11:08:38 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus
Roman Catholicism does NOT follow what the first and second century Church taught and practiced. Most of Roman Catholicism developed after the 6th century.

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Perhaps you are not familiar with the Church Fathers

Actually, I am familiar with the Church Fathers.

, who write about the Real Presence of the Eucharist

When the Church Fathers spoke of the real presence, they did NOT speak in the Roman Catholic terms of the Eucharist being transformed into the actual, flesh and blood of Christ. Transubstantiation as defined by Rome was a much later development.

, the Sacrifice of the Mass
The Church Fathers did not speak of the mass being a perpetual sacrifice as Rome came to define it.

, the veneration and prayers for intercessions from saints and Mary

The Church Fathers actually wrote against praying to anyone but God.

, the belief that Baptism saves and can be administered to infants

That was a development among some that was not accepted by all, or even most, but was debated with no consensus of agreement.

, and other such things. Your "6th century development" is not backed up by what information we have available.

Actually it IS backed up by the information we have available.

15,031 posted on 05/23/2007 11:19:32 AM PDT by Risky-Riskerdo
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To: jo kus
We've been here all along, as The Church.

Where are the distinctive "Protestant" theological constructs, such as Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide?

Irenaeus:

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.---"Against Heresies", 3:1.1, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 414.

Irenaeus says the Scriptures are the "ground and pillar of our faith." Protestants, so named by Roman Catholicism as a pejorative term during the Reformation agrees.

Athanasius:

The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.---"Against the Heathen", I:3, quoted in Carl A. Volz, Faith and Practice in the Early Church [Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1983], p. 147.)

Christians, whom Rome branded as "Protestants" agree that the Scriptures are wholly sufficient for the proclamation of the Truth---Sola Scriptura.

Gregory of Nyssa:

...we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.---"On the Soul and the Resurrection", quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)

Christians whom Rome pejoratively branded as "Protestants" agree that "For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.----Sola Scriptura.

Rome disagrees.

Gregory of Nyssa:

Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.---"On the Holy Trinity", in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. V, p. 327.)

We Christians agree with Gregory on Sola Scriptura, Rome doesn't.

John Chrysostom:

Let us not therefore carry about the notions of the many, but examine into the facts. For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer to [our own] calculation; but in calculating upon [theological] facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though we possess an exact balance, and square and rule for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things---"Homily 13 on 2 Corinthians", in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. XII, p. 346.

Imagine that John Chrysostom espousing Sola Scriptura, AND espousing that the Christian NOT regard what another man thinks but to "inquire from the Scriptures";
Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things

Clearly Chrysostom was familiar with Paul's praising of the Bereans for inquiring of the Scriptures to see if what Paul was preaching was true. We Christians agree, Rome does not.

Where are the "Protestant" communities?

We were not called "protestant" then, we were called, "Christians".

We are the One, True, catholic Church and Rome an imposter.

Which orthodox Christian wrote about that before the first millenium expired? To explore history is to find out that Protestantism is a late invention of men.

The facts have just proven that party line assertion to be a fallacy and illusion of a great proportion.

15,039 posted on 05/23/2007 11:41:30 AM PDT by Risky-Riskerdo
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