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To: adiaireton8; Risky-Riskerdo
I speak about what I know, what I've read, what I've seen and what is apparent from the voluminous posts of the RC posters on this forum.

If you believed that Christ has justified His flock, you would not seek absolution from other men, you would not bow down to the stock of a tree, you would not pray to any other mediators between men and God but Christ Jesus, and most especially you would know the answer to all your questions is Christ risen from the cross, as told to us in Scripture.

"Be not afraid, only believe." -- Mark 5:36

14,853 posted on 05/21/2007 4:24:22 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I speak about what I know, what I've read, what I've seen and what is apparent from the voluminous posts of the RC posters on this forum.

I don't doubt that. But when you talk about Catholic doctrine, you almost immediately construct a straw man, which shows that you don't understand it.

If you believed that Christ has justified His flock, you would not seek absolution from other men,

That is a non sequitur. You are using your Calvinistic conception of justification, and imposing it on Catholic theology. Moreover, Christ Himself is the one who told His Apostles in John 20:21, "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sin of any, they have been retained." Christ is referring to the authority of the keys of the kingdom of heaven. The merits of Christ's work come to us through the Church. That is why Christ's work on the cross is not incompatible with seeking absolution from the Magisterium according to John 20:21.

-A8

14,856 posted on 05/21/2007 4:31:20 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
If you believed that Christ has justified His flock, you would not seek absolution from other men, you would not bow down to the stock of a tree, you would not pray to any other mediators between men and God but Christ Jesus, and most especially you would know the answer to all your questions is Christ risen from the cross, as told to us in Scripture.

Nor would Roman Catholicism seek to satisfy God's Wrath themselves in the atonement of penance whereby a human atones for the sins Christ has not covered.

Roman Catholicism asserts that penitential works are meritorious before God who accepts those works as a payment for the temporal punishment due to sin, all of which merits God’s mercy, forgiveness and justification. Trent states it clearly:

Canon IX. If anyone saith, that the sacramental absolution of the priest is not a judicial act, but a bare ministry of pronouncing and declaring sins to be forgiven to him who confesses; provided only he believe himself to be absolved, or (even though) the priest absolve not in earnest, but in joke; or saith, that the confession of the penitent is not required, in order that the priest may be able to absolve him: let him be anathema.

Canon XII. If any one saith, that God always remits the whole punishment together with the guilt, and that the satisfaction of penitents is no other than the faith whereby they apprehend that Christ has satisfied for them: let him be anathema.

Canon XIII. If any one saith, that the satisfaction for sins, as to their temporal punishment, is nowise made to God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, by the punishments inflicted by him, and patiently borne, or by those enjoined by the priest, nor even by those voluntarily undertaken, as by fastings, prayers, alms–deeds, or by other works also of piety; and that, therefore, the best penance is merely a new life: let him be anathema.

Canon XIV. If any man saith, that the satisfactions, by which penitents redeem their sins through Jesus Christ, are not a worship of God, but traditions of men, which obscure the doctrine of grace, and the true worship of God, and the benefit itself of the death of Christ: let him be anathema.

Trent unambiguously states that satisfaction is made to God through the works of penance and that through these works men redeem their sins, such a construct is antithetical to the Gospel of Christ, and an insult to His precious Blood.

For those who would say that we don't understand the language of Trent, John Hardon confirms it in John Hardon confirms it in, The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism;

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Penance means repentance or satisfaction for sin. If we expect God’s forgiveness we must repent. Penance is necessary because we must expiate and make reparation for the punishment which is due our sins...Christ instituted this sacrament to give us a ready and assured means of obtaining remission for the sins committed after baptism...A person must be in a state of grace to merit divine mercy for his venial sins...Satisfaction must be made for sins already forgiven because normally some—and even considerable—temporal punishment is still due, although the guilt has been removed...We make satisfaction for our sins by every good act we perform in a state of grace but especially by prayer, penance and the practice of charity...All prayer merits satisfaction for sin...The patience acceptance of trials or humiliations sent by God is expiatory. Our works of satisfaction are meritorious if they are done while in a state of grace...Sacramental satisfaction is the penitential work imposed by a confessor in the confessional in order to make up for the injury done to God and atone for the temporal punishment due to sin already forgiven. The penitent is obliged to perform the penance imposed by the priest, and deliberate failure to perform a penance imposed for mortal sin is gravely sinful...Sins can also be expiated through indulgences

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Pay attention to the words, atonement, expiation, reparation, satisfaction, redeeming sin and merit.

Roman Catholicism's dogmas on penance are an afront to and denial of the sufficiency of the atonement of Jesus Christ. It places the burden on humanity which must supplement the work of atonement done by the Lord Jesus on the Cross by their own works of atonement to satisfy the justice of God and to merit justification and the reward of heaven.

Key statement by Hardon is: Christ instituted this sacrament to give us a ready and assured means of obtaining remission for the sins committed after baptism.

The conclusion is that in baptism original sin is remitted, and the Roman Catholic is restored to a state of grace, but sins committed after baptism must be atoned for by the penitent themselves. Therefore, Christ's Atonement only made it possible for original sin to be remitted in baptism.

The gospel of Roman Catholicism ultimately is: "Get baptized and do penance."

The Biblical Gospel is: Believe on Christ and be baptized.

The Biblical Gospel is God reaching down to man to rescue those whom God has chosen, the gospel of Roman Catholicism is man trying to win God's approval by his own efforts.

14,865 posted on 05/21/2007 4:58:37 PM PDT by Risky-Riskerdo
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