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To: Blogger; Antoninus; TomSmedley; P-Marlowe; annalex; kosta50
Thus, when one looks at the actual greek, there is not a question that Joseph knew Mary. Rather, the Bible states that he witheld from marital relations with her UNTIL (or up to the time when) Jesus was born. Mat 1:25

The word "til" does NOT prove that something happened afterwards...

Marlowe, I hope you don't hit the abuse button here...

Gen 8:7 -- the raven "did not return TILL the waters were dried up..." Question: Did the raven return? NO!

Deut 34:6 -- Moses died "and no one knows his grave TILL this day." Question: Have we found Moses' grave? NO!

2 Sam 6:23 -- Michal "had no children TILL the day of her death." Question: Did she have children after she died? NO!

1 Macc 5:54 -- "...not one of them was slain TILL they had returned in peace." Was Judas M and his troops killed when they returned? NO!

Luke 1:80 -- John the B "was in the deserts TILL the day of his manifestation to Israel." Did John the B stay in the desert? YES! (cf. Matt 3:1; Mark 1:3-4; Luke 3:2-4)

Rom 8:22 -- "...the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together UNTIL now." Is it still groaning? YES!

1 Cor 15:25 -- "For He must reign TILL He has put all enemies under His feet." After all enemies are put away, will Christ be reigning? YES!

Eph 4:12-13 -- "...for the equipping...for the work of ministry.... for the edifying....TILL we all come to the unity of the faith...." Once we become unified, will equipping, ministry, and edification still be necessary? YES!

1 Tim 4:13 -- "TILL I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine." When Paul arrives, no more reading, no more exhorting, no more doctrine? NO!

1 Tim 6:14 -- "....that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless UNTIL our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing..." When Jesus comes back, we should disobey these commandments? NO!

Rev 2:25-26 -- "But hold fast what you have TILL I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works UNTIL the end, to him I will give power..." Should we stop holding fast and stop obeying when Jesus returns? NO!

clipped from http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num27.htm

Matthew 1:25 does not conclusively prove anything about Mary's virginity.

Regards

1,479 posted on 12/15/2006 7:24:21 AM PST by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus; P-Marlowe

jo kus. No, the word "til" does not always mean something came afterward. But according to the Greek Lexicon (Thayers), when coupled with ou, it means up to the time when Jesus was born. So, Joseph knew her not up to the time when Jesus was born is the meaning of the text.

The strong implication is that Joseph and Mary had normal relations as a married couple. They also had children together as James was Jesus' half-brother. Jesus as Mary's FIRSTBORN Son (prototkon- meaning eldest son or firstborn) also implies other children.

Please do not clip from an apologetics site. Look at the lexicon yourself to find out any special context concerning the word in question. I did.


1,487 posted on 12/15/2006 8:05:49 AM PST by Blogger
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