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To: kosta50; annalex; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; kawaii; jo kus
As far as I know, God didn't write the Bible. We did. Given all the versions and conversions, and revisions, and additions and subtractions...that is obvious.

I suppose we will always disagree about that. :) I believe that the original was directly from God. Further, in the major Christian translations I believe God has protected the core faith. Sure, it is possible that minor error has crept into some of them, but 100% of the true faith is still there. Thus, if the only Bible I had available to me was the version you use, I would be perfectly fine with that. That's pretty amazing considering how much we disagree theologically. :)

FK: "But Jesus says it as plainly as it can be said. What is your interpretation of: John 3:3..."

Figure of speech.

That's what Nicodemus thought, and Jesus immediately corrected him. Jesus says in effect "No no no, I'm NOT kidding, you must be born again. You are born once in the flesh and you must be born again in the Spirit". That isn't a figure of speech, it is literal truth.

We are born with mud on our hearts because of our ancestral sin. When that mud gets washed off, with the Holy Spirit, we begin to regain our likeness to God (process of theosis). There is no new heart. There is the same heart, except cleansed, "shining like new!" :) (emphasis added)

Scripture disagrees:

Ezek 36:26-27 : 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Another figure of speech? I mean, on one level it is, but it refers to a literal change. New heart and new Spirit.

Baptism is adoption not salvation. We are given a new home, the House of God (Church) in which we can safely grow in the merciful love of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and walk in His steps.

But if sins are forgiven at Baptism, as you say, then it must be salvific. That is, if you believe that forgiveness of sins is necessary for theosis. It is, though, only a temporary salvation, since the Apostolic view is that man has the power to trump what the Bible says God did once and for all.

I also maintain that Exodus is a Jewish myth, biblically and historically. It never happened.

Jews of Jesus' time certainly believed it was literal. If you are correct then the Passover is a complete fraud. Jesus practiced the Passover as a religious activity. If He knew it was all a fraud, I wonder why He never said anything.

The original Apostles were not sent; they were picked, chosen on the spot. We could say that the prophets were "sent" but not the 12 Apostles. Perhaps the word is a misnomer. Disciples (students) is a better word. But one of the 12 was the devil, as the Bible tells us. If they were all 'sent," then surely Judas was 'sent" too!

The Greek word is "Apostolos" which means "he that is sent" (Str. 652). By the time of the Great Commission, Judas was already dead. All of the true Apostles were sent.

14,748 posted on 05/18/2007 10:21:21 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; kawaii; jo kus
if sins are forgiven at Baptism, as you say, then it must be salvific.

Baptism IS salvific: "Whereunto baptism being of the like form [visibly related to water], now saveth you also" (1 Peter 3:21)

14,829 posted on 05/21/2007 2:46:20 PM PDT by annalex
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