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To: Forest Keeper
HA! Trying to use my own commentary against me, eh? That's no fair! :) Well, in this case I happen to disagree with Barnes, that is, if his overall belief was that scripture itself does not support that all was God-breathed (I don't know). No, in this case I will agree with such unimpeachable sources as: (Vatican 1)

Yes, but Vatican 1 was 1800 years after Paul wrote to Timothy. Vatican 1 was a recognition of what Paul wrote, but there was no New Testament when Paul wrote to Timothy, just a bunch of different collections of a few Christian letters floating around. Scripture, to Paul, referred to the OT - in Timothy's case, the Septuagint.

It was interesting in looking this up because I found that some Catholics believe exactly as I do, that every word of the scripture is inerrant and exactly as God wished. But there are other Catholics who believe that the Bible is only inerrant concerning the "big stuff" (limited inerrancy), and is otherwise filled with errors. I didn't know that.

The Church teaches that the Bible is inerrant. However, that does NOT mean that the Bible literally tells us historical information in every case. Parables and fictional tales MAY exist in the Bible - and it is STILL considered inerrant. We have discussed this once before. Something is inerrant based on the author's INTENT. Everything that GOD INTENDS is inerrant.

But you are talking about a lost person. In that case, you would be right, the Truth is nonsense to a lost person. However, once the Spirit indwells, then growth is possible. God promises that it will happen, so that's how we can know the Truth.

So apparently, there are many truths now, some diametrically opposed... Where does the Spirit guarantee that every individual will be shown the full truth that God has revealed? God guarantees this truth to the Church as a Body, not as an individual.

OK, great. Then why in the world do you argue against perspicuity of scriptures?

Why in the world are there so many denominations of Protestantism, all claiming to be 'Spirit-led'? What gives?

That's right, and John says as much. Sola Scriptura is also fine with this since it says that the Bible only gives us everything we NEED to know, not everything there IS to know.

That is a matter of opinion. The Bible doesn't even make THAT statement - that it tells us EVERYTHING we need to know.

God's chosen DO have no choice but to follow them: Phil 2:13 : ... for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Where does that say that the "saved" have no choice but to follow God? It only says that God works in us the will to act according to His purpose, not that our will is totally destroyed.

Regards

14,555 posted on 05/12/2007 11:34:13 PM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus; kosta50
The Church teaches that the Bible is inerrant. However, that does NOT mean that the Bible literally tells us historical information in every case. Parables and fictional tales MAY exist in the Bible - and it is STILL considered inerrant.

Yes, but what happens when the truth of the thing asserted is fully dependent on its historical accuracy? For example, if David never lived then Jesus' whole lineage and indeed His title "Son of David" would be a complete sham. BTW, I got that stuff on limited inerrancy from Religious Tolerance. It doesn't appear to be particularly friendly to Catholics, but not overly mean either. I just found it randomly, and was curious about to what level Catholics could take the Bible metaphorically.

So apparently, there are many truths now, some diametrically opposed... Where does the Spirit guarantee that every individual will be shown the full truth that God has revealed? God guarantees this truth to the Church as a Body, not as an individual.

No, there are not many truths, just one. But, people apprehend the truth at different rates and times. The Spirit governs all of it. Otherwise, sanctification would not be the lifelong process it is described as in the Bible. And, there is no guarantee that ALL truth will be revealed to anyone during life. That would leave such a person with nothing left to learn. I don't see that as possible. Apparently, this guarantee also does not apply to the Church, since different Apostolic faiths have different beliefs, AND, within the Latin Church anyway, some beliefs (truths) have been modified or changed over time. It appears that "the Church" learns in much the same way as individuals do, as the Spirit wills.

Why in the world are there so many denominations of Protestantism, all claiming to be 'Spirit-led'? What gives?

There really aren't that many among Bible-believing Protestants. Anyone can say he isn't Roman Catholic and start some weird "faith". They have nothing to do with us and we are not responsible for them not being Roman Catholic. There is no "Protestant" hierarchy to determine who may call themselves Protestants. Bible-believing Protestants follow Sola Scriptura and have much in common. Perhaps one of the biggest differences we have is the synergist-monergist problem. Nevertheless, the faiths are fairly compatible on the core elements. As I said above, the Spirit leads as He will.

That is a matter of opinion. The Bible doesn't even make THAT statement - that it tells us EVERYTHING we need to know.

Well then, here's a passage you've never seen before: :)

2 Tim 3:16-17 : 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

To you, does "thoroughly equipped" somehow not equal "everything we need to know"?

FK: "God's chosen DO have no choice but to follow them: Phil 2:13 : ... for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

Where does that say that the "saved" have no choice but to follow God? It only says that God works in us the will to act according to His purpose, not that our will is totally destroyed.

If this referred to the lost, then God would be the author of sin (God working IN the person), and nobody believes that. Secondly, you're watering it down with "God works in us the will to act". That's not what it says. Instead, it says "God who works in you to will and to act". It is a subtle but significant difference, and I understand why you made it. The actual text says that it is God doing the work, not Him working to persuade us. The text has God in charge and in control. The will being "destroyed" is a non-issue because for the believer, the will has already been changed by God. The heart of stone is removed, and a heart of flesh has taken its place. And of course, a remnant of the sin nature remains, even after conversion, hence, we believers still sin from time to time. Therefore, the old will is not completely destroyed, but is almost completely replaced with a new will in favor of Christ. It is not a matter of God forcing against choice, it's a matter of God literally changing our minds.

14,767 posted on 05/19/2007 6:53:50 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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