I’m going to let the reader handle that one topcat.
As far as our conversation goes, I see not much has changed since the dispensational thread so I’m going to leave it at that. I left the conversation on dispensationalism for a reason and I see that some still wish to broad-brush and attack it with untruths. We (dispensationalists) have dealt with BOTH the Old and New Testaments at length on other threads. You are aware of these threads because you were right in the middle of them. If our discussions didn’t answer any questions then they aren’t going to answer them now. But then again, I really don’t think the questions are posed with a sincere inquiry into knowledge but are posed with an agenda which already hates dispensationalism (and dispensationalists???) to the core. Sorry, not interested in playing the “gotcha” game tonight. Maybe some other time, but frankly my time is more valuable than that.
As to the ordinances, I answered all I care to answer there as well. I defined both and gave examples which were directly pertinent to Lord’s Supper and Baptism. You don’t like the answer so you re-ask the question. Sorry, asked and answered. I’ll let the reader decide there as well.
In closing, sit back and think for a moment of why this discussion is taking place. The vitriol against dispensationalism is as thick as I have ever seen on these threads. Why would that be? Because we are unbiblical? So you would claim. But if (and we aren’t) were were, what is the harm? Has it effected our evangelistic zeal? A HUGE number of evangelical Christians are indeed pre-tribulationists and dispensationalists. Evangelicals send out a slew of missionaries everywhere and Southern Baptists in particular have been key in the spread of the gospel. Has it effected our love for the Lord? To the contrary, it makes us love Him and long for Him even more! And it causes us to do what He always wanted us to, wait patiently and look for His coming. Does it keep us from the Scripture? No. We are avid readers of Scripture, both old and New Testament. Does it keep us from evangelizing Jews? Again, I know of no dispensationalist that teaches that Jews should not be evangelized. I’ve heard rumors, but I have heard denials of those rumors as well so again, I’d have to truly see it in the context of ALL of the writers writing before I would believe it and even then would reject that such was a teaching of dispensationalism.
So, as far as dispensationalism goes, again, dealt with. Not a profitable discussion. Don’t care to delve into it again at this point.
As far as the Ordinances go, if I am reading you correctly, you do not believe neglect of Lord’s Supper or Baptism will send a soul to Hell and that salvation is by grace through faith alone. As such, the Ordinances, or sacraments as you would call them, are secondary issues about which Christians can disagree. I believe that you and I find commonality in our soteriolgy as far as the doctrines of grace in salvation go. Then again, I could be surprised there as well.
All for now. B.
Blogger, you're correct to say these dispensationalist arguments have been rehashed over and over again. I don't wish to get dragged into discussions about prophecy throughout the scripture. And, as you've stated, not much has change.
For over 1900 years the church historically has held three differing views on eschatology; Post, Amil, and historical Premillennialism. While each view offers legitimate arguments on eschatology, they all agree on the fundamental principle that God blesses believers only. He does not bless, nor has He ever blessed, those who have no faith in Him.
I remember reading The Late, Great Planet Earth in the early '70s. It's not an exaggeration to say that it was similar to Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life in popularity among both Christians and non-Christians. Mr. Lindsey had everything laid out and it sounded very reasonable. Trouble is none of it ever happened. The world changed and Mr. Linsey's paradigms evaporated. Yet Mr. Lindsey is in his third revision, tailoring his book according to world events; fitting prophecy to events around us. Shouldn’t that make one a little suspicious that he just may not understand what he’s talking about? The post-modern dispensationalist view isn't rooted in anything except loosely cobbled together verses following news events. It doesn't even parallel historical premillennial arguments. There is no historical basis for any of this. Yet it remains immensely popular.
You asked, “What is the harm?” To me, people like Hal Lindsey, Scofield and Rylie are dangerous (and, yes, that is a correct word) although they probably don’t understand their error. They are Christians who are saying God loves people who reject Him. This is a dangerous position to be in and to be touting. It was never the view of the church but it is now. This view has so crept into the church today that it permeates just about every facet of every church and has lead to the post-modern church we see today. Sin and God's wrath are minimized to a point that it is barely visible in but a few churches who dare to teach this truth. The Post-Modern will ask, "If God loves everyone, why doesn’t He love those in Africa who practice some kind of pagan ritual, a Hindu in India, a homosexual cleric?" The harm is the subtle change that has occurred; that God loves us in spite of our rejection of Him. God loves everyone. God loves Israel despite the rejection of His Son, therefore God must love all mankind for their rejection of His Son. After all, isn't the God of the Jews the same as the God of Christians? The answer is no!
God does not love the Jews any more than He loves the Hindus. God's wrath rests upon this world. Every time God graciously showers His blessings upon us, and we reject His mercies, we store up wrath and judgment against us. God calls all men to repent and come to the Son. Those who spur God’s message will not find fellowship with Him, but His wrath will rest upon them. The reformulation of Israel, is divinely inspired for whatever purpose, but it is not because God favors the Jews. One only has to read the book of Judges to discovered what happened when Israel fell away.