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To: Alamo-Girl
Thank you AG. I appreciate your reply. Our irreconcilable differences are precisely why verse "water boarding" is wholly unnecessary and takes away from the principled discussion.

It does not reconcile our differences, but it does dilute and even obfuscate the principle points we are making. If I responded in kind, we would be taking up the entire bandwidth with quotes and counter-quotes without affecting either position.

This doesn't mean that we can't learn from each other by simply pointing to sources in the general direction. It's up to us to seek or not to seek. But ours is to speak what's in our hearts, not try to "convince" someone through exhaustion.

I am all for learning from each other. All people know all things, as a saying goes. Everyone knows something we don't. If you get a chance, read Tolstoy's Coffee House. It is very pertinent to our discussion (and attitude). Or, if you don't want to, then read his last three paragraphs to get the gest (my emphases):

And I do read the Scriptures, all the time, except that I check my readings against the combined wisdom of the Church and not seek my own hidden leanings attributed to the HS. I would never wish to blaspheme His name by saying it is Him and not me speaking.

14,203 posted on 05/08/2007 8:29:28 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine; Quix
Thank you for the book recommendation and excerpt!

This doesn't mean that we can't learn from each other by simply pointing to sources in the general direction. It's up to us to seek or not to seek. But ours is to speak what's in our hearts, not try to "convince" someone through exhaustion.

My intent has never been to exhaust. When it comes to the words of God, I can never get enough - so it would not bother me at all if we exchanged whole chapters on a routine basis. Though it would be a bandwidth killer to exchange whole books (except Jude) on a single thread.

The convincing power is God's alone. He is Light. And He speaks to us individually - from the very same passage revealing one truth at one time to one person in one circumstance - and yet another truth from the same passage at a different time, perhaps even to the same person in a different circumstance.

And I do read the Scriptures, all the time, except that I check my readings against the combined wisdom of the Church and not seek my own hidden leanings attributed to the HS. I would never wish to blaspheme His name by saying it is Him and not me speaking.

Truly, as He chooses to reveal Himself to us, we know the difference and Who He is and when we are musing or are being led by Him. But it is also true that the Holy Spirit can be quenched.


14,228 posted on 05/08/2007 9:48:20 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl
Our irreconcilable differences are precisely why verse "water boarding" is wholly unnecessary and takes away from the principled discussion. It does not reconcile our differences, but it does dilute and even obfuscate the principle points we are making. If I responded in kind, we would be taking up the entire bandwidth with quotes and counter-quotes without affecting either position.

Frankly, your response is gibberish to a Christian, Kosta. To say that supporting Scripture "dilutes the point we're making" is like saying that using our arms and legs while we swim takes the fun out of the swimming pool.

God intends for us to measure every step we take by His word, by Jesus Christ as He reveals Himself to us in Scripture through the work of the Holy Spirit. We might get some things wrong, but we're never not supposed to strive for correct alignment with His word. It is the yardstick by which all human thought must be reconciled, whether men acknowledge that fact or not.

This is the correct, prosperous and optimal way to live. To diminish the word of God is to diminish God. Period.

It's no coincidence that out of the 33 chapters of the Westminster Confession of Faith, the very first chapter is, "Of the Holy Scripture." Each of the footnotes refers to supporting Scripture...

WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH

Chapter I
Of the Holy Scripture

I. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable;[1] yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation.[2] Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church;[3] and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing;[4] which makes the Holy Scripture to be most necessary;[5] those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[6]

II. Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testament, which are these: Of the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, I Samuel, II Samuel, I Kings, II Kings, I Chronicles, II Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, The Song of Songs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi. Of the New Testament: The Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, The Acts of the Apostles, Paul's Epistles to the Romans, Corinthians I, Corinthians II, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians I , Thessalonians II , To Timothy I , To Timothy II, To Titus, To Philemon, The Epistle to the Hebrews, The Epistle of James, The first and second Epistles of Peter, The first, second, and third Epistles of John, The Epistle of Jude, The Revelation of John. All which are given by inspiration of God to be the rule of faith and life.[7]

III. The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the canon of the Scripture, and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings.[8]

IV. The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, and obeyed, depends not upon the testimony of any man, or Church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.[9]

V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture.[10] And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it does abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.[11]

VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.[12] Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:[13] and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.[14]

VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all:[15] yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.[16]

VIII. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by His singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical;[17] so as, in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them.[18] But, because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded, in the fear of God, to read and search them,[19] therefore they are to be translated in to the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come,[20] that, the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship Him in an acceptable manner;[21] and, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, may have hope.[22]

IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.[23]

X. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.[24]

If you can't or won't cite Scripture in defense of your positions, your positions just aren't worth very much to God or to Christian men and women. Sorry. I don't make the rules, but I sure can read them.

14,240 posted on 05/08/2007 10:52:00 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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