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To: kosta50; annalex; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
Those who deny Apostolic succession deny the Apostlic authority.

This is silly.

The Apostles go into great detail about the qualities that individuals should exhibit to be selected by their congregations to be pastors. The decision making in the early church was done by the congregation, or by groups selected by the congregation. The autocratic hierarchy only emerged after the end of the Apostolic era. BTW, it is only after the emergence of this hierarchal system that doctrines are accepted that place the church between man and GOD.

14,198 posted on 05/08/2007 8:02:28 AM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: wmfights; annalex; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
The Apostles go into great detail about the qualities that individuals should exhibit to be selected by their congregations to be pastors

They don't talk about pastors but presbyters (priests), episkops (bishops), diakonos (deacons), etc. Perhaps your Protestant Bible calls them "pastors" but not so in Greek. In fact I can only think in Eph 4:11 where the Greek term poimen (shepherd) is translated as "pastor" in the entire NT.

The decision making in the early church was done by the congregation, or by groups selected by the congregation

The Council of Jerusalem was hardly a democratic decision. The major players, the apostles, decided. +Peter spoke and everyone listened. The Apostles were picked "autocratically" by Christ: basically he said "drop what you are doing and follow me."

+Paul was anything but a democrat. he expected the church leaders to be leaders, bishops to oversee, deacons to help carry out the administration of the Church.

The solid organization of the Church is evident before the end of the 1st century. I aloready referred to +Paul addressing the bishops (50-60 AD).

Christ was no longer there to pick and choose his disciples; so the disciples had to do it themselves. The elders, the experienced, were left to do that. It was an orderly succession, not a wild mushroom farm event, where every Joe could just start preaching.

You just consider orthodoxy as 'autocratic.' Well, either you are orthodox or you are not. Either what you believe is true faith or it is not. You can't be orthodox "a little bit." There is no gray zone, there is no wiggle room. And it's not a personal religion, tailored to your liking.

Once you start wiggling you end up with 33,000 denominations all claiming to be the "true church."

By the way, the clergy have less authority over you than your local traffic cop or your boss. They can't fire you. They can't arrest you. How can they be "autocratic?"

14,209 posted on 05/08/2007 8:51:09 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: wmfights; kosta50; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
doctrines are accepted that place the church between man and GOD

The Church has authority above men and binds in heaven:

16 ... if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

(Mathew 18)


14,273 posted on 05/08/2007 2:45:11 PM PDT by annalex
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