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To: Blogger; wmfights; Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; Frumanchu

As much as I would like to answer your long series of questions, I must point out that you have not defined grace vs. blessing wrt the sacraments of baptism and the Lord’s Supper.

Until you are able to do that and I can see your real objection, I can’t answer your questions because they are really just a diversion from the issue that you raised.

So what is it in all those verses that teach your view of “blessing” vs. my view of “grace” in the sacraments?


14,162 posted on 05/07/2007 6:40:37 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54; Blogger; wmfights; Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; ...
Communion or the “breaking of bread” was an ancient rite that expressed the attachment and fellowship of a special group, usually around a special person, a rabbi. Here at the Last Supper, the group were the disciples attached to Jesus and the bread that was consecrated by the cup of blessing (1 Cor. 10:16) acted as an effective representation of the broken body of Christ that signified that by His death (broken body) He was entering into His inheritance (His Kingdom). It also signified the unity of the group around the rabbi (1 Cor. 10:17). When the disciples on the Road to Emmaus knew Jesus in the “breaking of bread” it was because they had already participated before in that familiar symbolic rite; they were not present at the Last Supper. By the breaking of bread and eating the representation of the broken body of Christ the disciples were anticipating the sharing in His inheritance (I will not drink or eat with you again until in the kingdom). It was an eschatological rite for His family that signified they had been transformed from the mundane into their inheritance in the Kingdom.

It was not called a sacrament or an ordinance nor were the disciples commanded to routinely celebrate the rite. Paul says it is optional with his “as oft as you eat this bread and drink this cup...”. . Look at the discussion that took place at the Last Supper after the “breaking of bread”. They were laying around drinking and eating and debating what their places of authority were going to be in the promised kingdom. It was an argument over who was going to be sitting next to Jesus in the seats of power in the kingdom that was to come; rank ambition. Jesus does not criticize them but points out they will eat and drink with Him in the Kingdom and be rulers over kingdoms appointed to them. He exposed a traitor who had participated in the brotherhood meal, and He deflated the braggadocio of Peter; all of these things after the “breaking of bread”. There was nothing sacred about the “breaking of bread” and definitely, no grace was bestowed at that time.

Look at how the Corinthian church was celebrating it. It followed the meal like the Last Supper did. It was a part of the fellowship that identified them as a unity in Christ and inheritors of the kingdom that was to come.

Berkhof defines sacrament as “a holy ordinance instituted by Christ, in which by sensible signs the grace of God in Christ, and the benefits of the covenant of grace are represented, sealed, and applied to believers, and these, in turn, give expression to their faith and allegiance to God.” Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that in either baptism or communion the “benefits of the covenant of grace are ........, sealed, and applied to believers”. Represented, yes, but not the sealed and applied. Communion was just a variation of a common brotherhood rite with an eschatological component.

14,168 posted on 05/07/2007 8:25:20 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: topcat54

My answer is there topcat. And I’ve defined it several times. Basically, grace is imparted by the grace of God irrespective of the individual’s will. We do not receive saving grace because we want it. We receive saving grace because God wills it. He gives us the want to. But our want to has nothing to do with our receiving His grace any more than our taking Lord’s Supper has to do with us receiving grace from Him. It is WHOLLY and entirely unmerited favor. A blessing may be closely related and may be unmerited or merited. God said I bless you because you...(obeyed, are righteous, etc.,) In the blessing, sometimes, but not always, our human deeds play a part. It is a subtle difference, but it is a significant one. If one attaches any work we do to our receiving His grace, if we merit it because of any action that we perform, then it is no more grace. It is works. Otherwise, Sola Gratia is destroyed.

Therefore, when one participates in the ordinances of God, one does not receive a special grace- for we receive the fullness of His saving grace when we are saved and He gives us grace throughout life at the pleasure of His will. We do receive the blessings associated with those ordinances though in that we draw closer to our Lord through obedience and fellowship with Him.


14,204 posted on 05/08/2007 8:30:22 AM PDT by Blogger
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