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To: Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; betty boop; blue-duncan
Thank you AG. I told you already that endless verese generation does little for me, so I will cease this otherwise intriguing discussion because, frankly, we are moving away from principles and your replies are beginning to resemble verse "water-boarding."

You missed my point – or if you didn't then your answer was lost in endless verses – which was (and I even placed a disclaimer) that Gentiles (the goyim) were not only non-Hebrews but Jews as well, in fact, anyone who worshiped idols.

My point was that there was no "gray" area where one could be a Gentile "a little bit" (à la Christians i.e. uncircumcised and not keeping dietary laws) and be considered anything but a goy. That applied even to the Jews who did not keep the Law.

There is no "grafting" as an idea or a possibility anywhere in the OT or in Christ's ministry. The kind of flexibility we see introduced with +Paul simply was never there; nor did Christ ever mention it.

The OT teaches nothing but contempt for the Gentiles (Jews and non-Jews alike), even genocide. In this mindset there was no room for Christ to preach for the inclusion of the Gentiles and (no wonder) He never did teach inclusion of the Gentiles; it was, as Acts 13 shows, an afterthought subsequent to a failure of Christianity to survive in Israel.

14,154 posted on 05/07/2007 5:09:57 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[.. The OT teaches nothing but contempt for the Gentiles ..]

Not so... God whistled for the gentiles to come and GET the Jews several times.. to teach them a lesson.. Was only marginally successful.. until Titus and the diaspora in 70A.D. (or so).. God used the gentiles(goyim) like a rented donkey.. still is useing them too..

Not all christians are christians.. nor Jews; Jews..

14,158 posted on 05/07/2007 6:02:19 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: kosta50; hosepipe; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; betty boop; blue-duncan
Thank you AG. I told you already that endless verese generation does little for me, so I will cease this otherwise intriguing discussion because, frankly, we are moving away from principles and your replies are beginning to resemble verse "water-boarding."

Of course I will respect your wishes, but truly your post makes me very sad because God’s words are not torture but rather they are spirit and they are life.

That is the spiritual “key” to discerning John 6 – that we are to consume the body and the blood of Christ. He, the living Word of God, is our food and our drink.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

It is why a Name of Jesus is the “Word of God” (John 1 and Revelation 19.)

It is also a Spiritual Truth of Jesus’ testimony while He was in the wilderness being tempted by Satan, i.e. that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word the proceeds out of the mouth of God.

You missed my point – or if you didn't then your answer was lost in endless verses – which was (and I even placed a disclaimer) that Gentiles (the goyim) were not only non-Hebrews but Jews as well, in fact, anyone who worshiped idols.

I have always understood your point. Our disagreement is irreconcilable. Paul was a scribe for the Holy Spirit, the Romans 10 explanation of prophesy in the Song of Moses and Isaiah 65 is Spiritual Truth, not Paul's musings. But only the Spirit Himself can reveal that to you or anyone Lurking - therefore I have quoted Him at length, which you consider to be "water-boarding."

I do wish to clear up something though concerning the Hebrew word goy (plural, goyim.) It literally means “nation” and thus in Genesis 18:18, it refers to Abraham’s becoming a great and mighty nation (goy) and all the nations (goy) will be blessed in him. Likewise in Exodus 19:6 – God says “ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and an holy nation [goy]”.

Then in Leviticus 20:23, God tells Israel to not walk in the ways of the nation [goy] He is removing in front of them. Thereafter for the most part, the term goy is understood to mean “heathen”, e.g. Psalms 106:47.

And to this day it means Gentile and is often used as a pejorative:

Question 19.5: Is "shvartze" offensive? Is "goyim" offensive?

"Goy" [plural: goyim, adjective: goyishe] is the standard Hebrew term for non-Jew. Literally it is the Hebrew for "nation." Spoken aloud with a disgusted inflection, it's pejorative. So is the word 'Jew' in similar circumstances. Better to say "gentile" or "non-Jew" when writing in English for a multireligious audience, such as SCJ. In general, the use of judgemental or pejorative terms, even if no offense is intended, should be avoided. They only serve to incite anger and side-track the conversation. True conversation comes from being factual and appropriately neutral.

Goyim, Shiksas and Shkutzim

The most commonly used word for a non-Jew is goy. The word "goy" means "nation," and refers to the fact that goyim are members of other nations, that is, nations other than the Children of Israel.

There is nothing inherently insulting about the word "goy." In fact, the Torah occasionally refers to the Jewish people using the term "goy." Most notably, in Exodus 19:6, G-d says that the Children of Israel will be "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation," that is, a goy kadosh. Because Jews have had so many bad experiences with anti-Semitic non-Jews over the centuries, the term "goy" has taken on some negative connotations, but in general the term is no more insulting than the word "gentile."

The more insulting terms for non-Jews are shiksa (feminine) and shkutz (masculine). I gather that these words are derived from the Hebrew root Shin-Qof-Tzadei, meaning loathsome or abomination. The word shiksa is most commonly used to refer to a non-Jewish woman who is dating or married to a Jewish man, which should give some indication of how strongly Jews are opposed to the idea of intermarriage. The term shkutz is most commonly used to refer to an anti-Semitic man. Both terms can be used in a less serious, more joking way, but in general they should be used with caution.

If you are offended to hear that Jewish culture has a negative term for non-Jews, I would recommend that you stop and think about the many negative terms and stereotypes that your culture has for Jews.

From your other post at 14156:

me: At any rate, the apostles were not expressing a Judaic pagan-influenced belief by answering Jesus’ question

You: Sorry, AG. If they believed Christ was Jeremiah, they believed in reincarnation. Christianity doesn't believe in reincaration. Resurrection is not reincarnation, contrary to what you say.

They were responding to Jesus’ question “who do the people say that I am?” That does not mean they believed what the people were saying. Indeed, Jesus’ follow-up question was “who do you say that I am?” They did not repeat the answer. Indeed, Peter is the one who responds that Jesus is Christ, the Son of the living God.

Also if you do not wish to see resurrection as a reincarnation that is fine with me. I will continue to see a parallel, i.e. same spirit, different body. And I will continue to see re-animation (as in the two witnesses who were reincarnated, died and then reanimated and “taken up” --- and Lazarus et al) differently, i.e. same spirit, same body.

It is semantics.

14,196 posted on 05/08/2007 7:53:09 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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