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{me: Gentiles were an afterthought [see Act 13:46 which says "since you repudiate it [the word of God] and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles"]; Alamo-Girl: disagrees, quotes NT}

I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel

the dogs [Gentiles] eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table

Two things here sping to mind: (1) Christ was sent only for the lost sheep of Israel, not for the Gentiles as well. (2) Gentiles who wish to hang around their "master's" tables can benefit from the "crumbs" of their master's blessings. Only the "dogs" who believe in their masters will benefit as well (provided they don't bite the hand that feeds them). In other words, submissive and cooperative Gentiles will benefit but will never become like their masters; man and dogs will never be the same.

Let us not forget that any inclusion of Gentiles was unthinkable in those days. The Jews could not even eat with the Gentiles or form close relationships, converts notwithstanding. The only way a Gentile could be "grafted" onto the Jewish vine was for him or her to become Jewish.

No inclusion here.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. – Matt 23:37-38

Mat 23 is all about Pharisees and Jews. No inclusion here. we are talking about the lost sheep of the house of Israel all along.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. – John 4:21-23

A bit of contextual explanation is needed here. Samaritans use their own version of the Old Testament as their Scripture (in verse 25 the woman says "'"I know that Messiah is coming; when that One comes, He will declare all things to us'"). The Jews considered them to be false believers.

Christ is telling the woman that they don't know what they believe, and that seeking God through the Samaritan heresy is wrong. For, their true salvation is in the Jewish faith, not their distortion of it (funny, the rabbis used the same argument in Jamnia against Christians).

In other words, since they already claim the God of Abraham, they need to worship Him in true spirit (as the Jews do).

There is nothing here to indicate a general call of inclusion of the Gentiles into the Jewish vine, as a second-class add-on, but nothing short of full conversion to Judaism. certainly Christ never taught that Gentiles were to forsake the circumcision or dietary restrictions and still be considered true believers. Not even Samaritans whose only Scripture is the OT were acceptable because their OT fell short of the Jewish interpretation of it.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. – John 10:16

In context of Mat 15:24, the "sheep" in question are the lost sheep of the House of Israel (not of this fold), the only purpose for Christ's coming accoridng to Matthew. It is not an unequivocal call for gentiles to 'join' without adhering to Judaism.

And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus. And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. – John 12:20-24

The call to follow Him did not mean it's okay not to follow the Jewish customs for anyone who wants to convert.

There is nothing here to suggest the Greeks could join without circumcision, or dietary restrictions. Nothing short of becoming fully Jewish. Either you were a Jew or a Gentile.

I meant to ping you all to 14,098 FWIW

[.. There is nothing here to suggest the Greeks could join without circumcision, or dietary restrictions. Nothing short of becoming fully Jewish. Either you were a Jew or a Gentile. ..]

Fully Jewish?.. The Ark was long gone, with it's occupant..
And the Veil was about to be split.. vertically.. and maybe horizonally as well.. it was over..

Only thing left was a religion.. legality and a mental God..
You know the way it "IS" with all religions..
God is NOT a moron.. and the Talmud is not the Bible..

“There is nothing here to suggest the Greeks could join without circumcision, or dietary restrictions. Nothing short of becoming fully Jewish. Either you were a Jew or a Gentile.”

Matt. 8:8-13, “The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, but the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.”

Nothing about circumcision or dietry laws here. Just a clear statement of faith and the statement of Jesus that Gentiles will be included in the kingdom based on faith, like the Roman Centurian.

{me: Gentiles were an afterthought [see Act 13:46 which says "since you repudiate it [the word of God] and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles"]; Alamo-Girl: disagrees, quotes NT}

To the contrary, dear kosta50, I quoted the Old Testament prophesies along with the New Testament fulfillment of them. Spiritual discernment involves the entire revelation of God – it cannot be achieved with a flashlight pointed to an isolated verse here and there like Acts 13:46:

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: - Luke 24:25

Of course Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. He had to be rejected by them for grace to abound to us Gentiles. That was the reason I cited Matt 15:24-28 along with Matt 23:37-38. He knew they would reject Him, but that was all part of God’s plan to open the door for everyone, both Jew and Gentile. That is how He makes them jealous fulfilling the prophesy of Deut 32:21 and Isa 65:1, (Romans 10:19-21) as well as Zec 12:10, Rev 1:7 and Isa 45:23, Phl 2:9-11

That is why I also cited John 4:21-23, John 10:16 and John 12:20-24. While He knew the Jews would reject Him, He also knew (John 12) that His death would bring forth much fruit for the Father, i.e. obviously beyond the Jews who would reject Him, which is to say, fruit among the Gentiles.

Here it is again in summary form:

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:10-13

That was the plan, that was always the plan – from the foundation of the world. Everything moves towards the new heaven and new earth, God and His family.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Col 1:15-20

That is why I aver that it has always been Christianity, though the majority of Jews didn’t “get it” in their day – nor do many of them understand it even now.

Let us not forget that any inclusion of Gentiles was unthinkable in those days. The Jews could not even eat with the Gentiles or form close relationships, converts notwithstanding. The only way a Gentile could be "grafted" onto the Jewish vine was for him or her to become Jewish.

Exactly. They were unable or unwilling to discern what God said to them in Isaiah 65.

Christ is telling the woman that they don't know what they believe, and that seeking God through the Samaritan heresy is wrong. For, their true salvation is in the Jewish faith, not their distortion of it (funny, the rabbis used the same argument in Jamnia against Christians).

Not so, dear kosta50. Christ is telling her that salvation is from the Jews, i.e. He Himself the Messiah, root and offspring of David. Moreover, He is telling her that the true worshippers are not known by their accoutrements of worship but rather that they worship the Father in spirit and in truth. As mentioned in the above post, this also ties back to the prophesy of Isaiah 65:

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. – John 4:21-23

You continued:

In context of Mat 15:24, the "sheep" in question [John 10:16] are the lost sheep of the House of Israel (not of this fold), the only purpose for Christ's coming accoridng to Matthew. It is not an unequivocal call for gentiles to 'join' without adhering to Judaism.

Not at all, dear kosta50. Let’s look at the context in John 10 (emphasis mine):

The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind? And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:13-27

The Jews were physically hearing Him (sound, pressure waves) – but they were not spiritually hearing Him. His sheep are the ones who can hear Him – both of the Jews (one fold) and of the Gentiles (another fold.)

In reference to my quote of John 12:20-24 – the appearance of the Greeks seeking Him and His reply that “The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.” You said:

The call to follow Him did not mean it's okay not to follow the Jewish customs for anyone who wants to convert. There is nothing here to suggest the Greeks could join without circumcision, or dietary restrictions. Nothing short of becoming fully Jewish. Either you were a Jew or a Gentile.

That was indeed the false understanding of the Apostles in Jerusalem. God corrected Peter’s understanding in Acts 10 and 11 when He gave him the vision of the sheet, the call to see Cornelius and then gave Cornelius the Holy Spirit while Peter was still speaking, without a prior water baptism or laying on of his hands.

However, religious people that they were – they not only continued in many of the pointless Jewish traditions (which Christ condemns in Mark 7:7) – but gave the new Gentile converts the impression they were expected to become Jewish by custom as well. Paul corrected them in Acts 15 and 16.

This story is being told to us for yet another reason – a theme which goes from the law and the prophets all the way to Jesus’ message to the church of Ephesus. It is not enough to be doctrinally pure, to be religious in behavior and appearance. We must love God absolutely and our neighbors unconditionally (Matt 22 paraphrased) or we will suffer the fate of the Ephesians who did not overcome their religiousness. (Rev 3)

Who do we believe?

God knows our hearts, that oftentimes we choose to believe a religious system or organization or another mortal or ourselves rather than Him. We must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth - nothing can be above Him in our hearts and minds.