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To: jo kus
Where does the Bible make the claim that Jesus "caused" the Apostles to produce the NT? Sounds like a great big circular argument to me.

All scripture is God-breathed. Peter recognizes Paul's writings as scripture. Maybe I don't know what you mean.

Christ DID leave men. No circular argument there. Men who HE promised He would guide through the Holy Spirit. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit will lead these men astray?

I believe the Holy Spirit leads all believers, including the first Christians after the Apostles. However, it is clear that not everyone gets everything at the exact same time, and in the same amounts. Sanctification is tailored by the Spirit to the individual. The Spirit leads no one "astray", but we humans still make mistakes.

The fact of the matter is that Christianity existed for at least 20 years without ANY New Testament whatsoever. Apparently, God was able to use clay vessels as His instruments to effectively begin the Church.

That's true, but nevertheless the NT scripture was still obviously being taught orally. That does not offend Sola Scriptura at all.

Now, to tweak you some more...I would say that the Scriptures were of very little effect in the conversion of the Gentiles in the first century. Why? Because the Scriptures had no authority for Gentiles. How could Paul or Peter argue from a book that had no special position to them? That would be like me arguing from the Iliad...

They argued from pure truth, and it was God who convicted His elect, NOT the Apostles then, and not us now. The scriptures BECAME authority for God's chosen.

14,000 posted on 05/05/2007 1:43:02 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
All scripture is God-breathed. Peter recognizes Paul's writings as scripture. Maybe I don't know what you mean.

In context, 2 Timothy is refering to the writings that Timothy read as a youth. That would be the Old Testament, wouldn't you agree?

Here is what Barnes writes about this verse:

"All Scripture. This properly refers to the Old Testament, and should not be applied to any part of the New Testament, unless it can be shown that that part was then written, and was included under the general name of the Scriptures. Comp. 2Pet 3:15,16. But it includes the whole of the Old Testament, and is the solemn testimony of Paul that it was all inspired. If now it can be proved that Paul himself was an inspired man, this settles the question as to the inspiration of the Old Testament."

The Lexicons that I have read on the word "Scripture" also doesn't necessarily mean as you imply. Thayer's Lexicon lists the following meanings of the Greek word:

1) a writing, thing written

2) the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents

3) a certain portion or section of the Holy Scripture

Thus, it isn't necessary to say that Peter thought that Paul's writings were on par with the Old Testament. That, to me, is anachronistic thinking.

The meaning of my writing is that the Church recognizes God's inspired Word because the written word is in compliance with the oral word already taught. The community recognizes the inspiration and calls it "Holy" and so forth.

I believe the Holy Spirit leads all believers, including the first Christians after the Apostles. However, it is clear that not everyone gets everything at the exact same time, and in the same amounts. Sanctification is tailored by the Spirit to the individual. The Spirit leads no one "astray", but we humans still make mistakes.

We aren't speaking of sanctification. I would agree with your points if we were. We are speaking of how we can know the truth. God has given us a pillar and foundation for knowing the truth, and it is not our own minds "interpreting" what the "spirit" tells us. Such an idea disagrees with Protestant anthropology of the totally corrupt man who cannot think of anything good.

the NT scripture was still obviously being taught orally. That does not offend Sola Scriptura at all.

Sorry, Sola Scriptura is offensive and is not found anywhere in the Bible. I have asked this question to many Protestants, including you, and have not received a satisfactory answer from even ONE verse.

As to the NT being taught to the first Christians, you got it backwards, FK. The Apostles didn't start out thinking they were going to teach a written letter first through oral teachings. They taught orally - and much later, they wrote letters based on their oral teachings already given. They didn't teach anything by letter that the reader wouldn't understand. We have no indications that Jesus passed out NT Scriptures or outlines or anything written to the Apostles.

Nothing new was added to the Scriptures. The writings only address what was already taught. For example, from the NIV:

For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. 2 Cor 1:13

The writings were based on what Paul had ALREADY taught, but NOWHERE do we get the indication that EVERYTHING was written down in what we now call Scriptures. For example, the daily liturgical practice. Where do we see that in the Scriptures? HOW did they "break the bread"? What prayers did they say? What was their posture? WHO led the prayers? And baptism? The same questions... If the Bible was written more like a Catechism, more all-encompassing, I might be inclined to agree with you. However, the Bible is ambiguous and unclear on MANY issues, even the important ones, IF we are expected to read it without help from the community. Thus, the Ethiopian needed help in Acts 8 from the Church.

They argued from pure truth, and it was God who convicted His elect, NOT the Apostles then, and not us now. The scriptures BECAME authority for God's chosen.

Whether you like it or not, God has chosen us clay vessels to spread His Word. He doesn't need us to do that, but out of love, He has chosen to share this ministry with us men. God allows men to use human arguments and human writings to appeal to man's reason. God provides the faith in the man's heart to accept the reasonable arguments provided.

Yes, the Scripture became authority for God's chosen. Which tells us that the Scripture is not self-authenticating. If they were, then men would have no choice but to follow them. We believe they are God's Word bsaed on faith and the belief in the witnesses of Christ.

Regards

14,045 posted on 05/06/2007 8:40:18 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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