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To: Dr. Eckleburg
There can be only one TRUTH and ONE Holy Spirit.

You have chosen John Calvin over ALL the Saints and ALL the Early Church Fathers over 2000 years of History.

Every SINGLE Saint and Early Single Church Father(Not a Single exception)believed in the Real Presence,ALL of them.
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

You trust the Church Fathers enough to say they were guided by the Holy Spirit to give you Bible Canon but you trust John Calvin and John Knox to give you the correct interpretations of the Eucharist

So is it correct for me to say that you believe that the Saints and the Early Fathers were guided by an evil spirit in how they interpreted the Eucharist?ALL of them!
This is exactly what your saying.

you said...
“”Regardless, “early church fathers” are not Scripture, and Scripture is what determines our (and Calvin’s) understanding of the Lord’s Supper””

So lets look at Scripture,it is very clear that Jesus was NOT speaking metaphorically

“I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the desert and they are dead; but this is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that a man may eat and not die. I AM THE LIVING BREAD which has come down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is my flesh, for the life of the world. Then the Jews started arguing with one another. Did they understand Him correctly? Was He actually telling them He would give His own flesh for food? “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” they asked. Instead of reassuring them that he did not mean to be taken literally, Christ went on:

“I tell you most solemnly, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you will not have life in you. Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is REAL food and my blood is REAL drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in him. As I, who am sent by the living Father, myself draw life from the Father, so whoever eats me will draw life from me. This is the bread that came down from heaven; not like the bread that your ancestors ate; they are dead, but anyone who eats this bread will live forever” (John 6:48-58).
The evangelist explains that Christ taught this doctrine in the synagogue, but that hearing it “many of his followers said, ‘This is intolerable language, How could anyone accept it?’” Jesus was fully aware that His followers were complaining and, in fact, asked them, “does this upset you?” But He took nothing back. Rather He insisted, “The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” At the same time He explained that such faith is not of man’s making, since “no one could come to me unless the Father allows him.”

Following this animated dialogue, we are prepared for the statement, “After this, many of His disciples left Him and stopped going with Him.” Then, to make absolutely certain there was no mistaking what He was saying, Jesus said to the Twelve, “What about you, do you want to go away too?” To which Simon Peter replied, “Lord, who shall we go to? You have the message of eternal life, and we believe” (John 6:59-68).

Jesus says “You have to eat my flesh and drink my blood.” FOUR TIMES,He meant what He said LITERALLY.

The Church’s decisive revelation on the Real Presence is in the words of the consecration, “This is my body; this is my blood,” whose literal meaning has been defended through the ages. They were thus understood by St. Paul when he told the first Christians that those who approached the Eucharist unworthily would be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. There could be no question of a grievous offense against Christ Himself, unless Paul assumed that the true Body and the true Blood of Christ are really present in the Eucharist.

Let take a look at a few of the Early Church Fathers ,some who were DIRECT Disciple of the Apostles.

St. Ignatius became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He heard St. John preach when he was a boy and knew St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna who was a Disiple of Saint John
“I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.”

-”Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D

St. Irenaeus succeeded St. Pothinus to become the second bishop of Lyons in 177 A.D. Earlier in his life he studied under St. Polycarp. Considered, one of the greatest theologians of the 2nd century, St. Irenaeus is best known for refuting the Gnostic heresies.

[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies.”

Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:

Now lets take a look at What Saint Anthansis says, he was was the first to give us the complete listing of New Testament Books.

“’The great Athanasius in his sermon to the newly baptized says this:’ You shall see the Levites bringing loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers of supplication and entreaties have not been made, there is only bread and wine. But after the great and wonderful prayers have been completed, then the bread is become the Body, and the wine the Blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ. ‘And again:’ Let us approach the celebration of the mysteries. This bread and this wine, so long as the prayers and supplications have not taken place, remain simply what they are. But after the great prayers and holy supplications have been sent forth, the Word comes down into the bread and wine - and thus His Body is confected.”,

-”Sermon to the Newly Baptized” ante 373 A.D.,

Certainly Saint Athanasius MUST have known the Correct Interpretations regarding the Eucharist.

Not according to you and John Calvin and John Knox!

Calvin Knox and others failed to understand typology of the Scriptures

Here are a few ground rules regarding symbolism that must be mastered before anyone makes an attempt for serious Bible study.
1. You have probably heard the quotation by Saint Augustine:
“The New Testament lies hidden in the Old Testament and the Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament”.
2. The New Testament is hidden in the Old by a plethora of symbolism called typology.
3. Old Testament types (symbols) and even New Testament symbolism always point to New Testament realities as I will show soon.
4. An Old Testament type never points to a New Testament symbol.
This is such an important point, that I will reword it for emphasis. A symbol of the O.T. never points to a N.T. symbol but always to the reality of what the symbol represents.
5. A symbol of itself has no power to save. All power is reserved for the much greater reality.
6. Here are some other terms, some of which are in Holy Scripture, which are sometimes used as substitutions for symbolism:
shadow, foreshadow, badge, emblem, figure, template, pattern, token, foretoken, prefigurement, prefiguration, gesture, label, picture, hint, sign, blueprint, image. As you can readily see, none are the reality of what they represent.
We are made in the image of GOD (Genesis 1:26-27) but we are certainly not divine as is GOD.

Here are some examples of symbolism versus reality...
*The Sabbath:
Colossians 2:16-17, the Jewish Sabbath is but a shadow of good things to come. This is a foreshadowing of the Christian Sunday worship. How much power does a shadow have compared to what causes it to begin with?
Exodus 31:16-17, the Sabbath is a sign or a token (the word used depends on the Bible) and it is for the children of Israel.

*The Law:
Hebrews 10:1, the Law (the first five books of the Old Testament) is but a shadow of good things to come.
The “good things to come” is the New Covenant of Jesus Christ which has obsoleted the Law, Hebrews 8:13.

*Animal sacrifice:
Hebrews 10:4, the blood of oxen and goats cannot take away sins. Animal sacrifices were symbolic of the New Testament reality of the Blood of Christ which could wash away the sins of the world.
Ephesians 1:7, through the blood of His Son, we are set free from our sins.

*The Holy Eucharist:
The manna in the desert (the O.T. type) fed the body, but it could never feed the soul, John 6:49.
The manna is the symbol for the Holy Eucharist.
The only thing that could feed the soul is the Body and Blood of Christ, the Holy Eucharist (the N.T. reality), John 6:47-58.
The basic rules of typology,
“An Old Testament type never points to a New Testament symbol, but to its reality.”
“A symbol of itself has no power to save anyone. All power to save is reserved for the much greater reality.”

Now why do Protestants and Fundamentalists and other non-Catholics bend and break the rules of typology by taking the whole Bible literally except for chapter six of the Gospel of John for which they say is symbolic? Doesn’t it sound strange to you that all books of the Bible are taken literally by them except for that one chapter in the Gospel of John?
Isn’t it reminiscent of Martin Luther who wanted to remove entire books from the Bible simply because they were opposed to HIS teaching?
The answer to why is simply because none of them have a valid authorized priesthood which is able to perform sacrifice as commanded by Holy Scripture that we must do on a continuous daily basis. So, for them IT IS ONLY A SYMBOL!
However, they have no right to say for the Catholic Holy Eucharist, that it is only a symbolic gesture also.

For those who deny the true presence in the Catholic Holy Eucharist, I must point out two Bible references which fit all of the scoffers perfectly. I have listed each of the two from different Bibles for emphasis:

“But these people, like irrational animals born by nature for capture and destruction, revile things that they do not understand, and in their destruction they will also be destroyed, suffering wrong as payment for wrongdoing.
2Peter 2:12-13

“These false teachers insult what they don’t understand. They are like animals, which are creatures of instinct that are born to be caught and killed. So they will be destroyed like animals and lose what their wrongdoing earned them. These false teachers are stains and blemishes.”
2Peter 2:12-13

“But these people revile what they do not understand and are destroyed by what they know by nature like irrational animals. Woe to them! They followed the way of Cain, abandoned themselves to Balaam’s error for the sake of gain, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.”
Jude 1:10-11

“Whatever these people don’t understand, they insult. Like animals, which are creatures of instinct, they use whatever they know to destroy themselves. How horrible it will be for them! They have followed the path of Cain. They have rushed into Balaam’s error to make a profit. They have rebelled like Korah and destroyed themselves.”
Jude 1:10-11

Dear Sister, I think it is possible that John Calvin and John Knox may have committed unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit.
This is only my opinion

13,627 posted on 04/26/2007 4:24:48 PM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: stfassisi; Dr. Eckleburg
“*The Holy Eucharist:
The manna in the desert (the O.T. type) fed the body, but it could never feed the soul, John 6:49.
The manna is the symbol for the Holy Eucharist.
The only thing that could feed the soul is the Body and Blood of Christ, the Holy Eucharist (the N.T. reality), John 6:47-58.
The basic rules of typology,
“An Old Testament type never points to a New Testament symbol, but to its reality.”
“A symbol of itself has no power to save anyone. All power to save is reserved for the much greater reality.””

If the cup after blessing becomes the blood of Jesus, why does He say He will drink it again with the disciples in the Kingdom? Why does He give them the bread and cup before He dies if it becomes His broken body and shed blood and yet that has not happened? Why does He say do this in remembrance of me rather than you must do it for your salvation? Why does the eating of the bread and drinking the cup in the presence of Jesus have absolutely no spiritual effect on the disciples immediately after, vis, the squabble over authority, Peter’s braggadocio, Judas’ betrayal, and ultimately all of the disciples abandoning and even sleeping in His hour of need? You see, words matter; remembrance is memorial, not present action.

“*The Sabbath:
Colossians 2:16-17, the Jewish Sabbath is but a shadow of good things to come. This is a foreshadowing of the Christian Sunday worship. How much power does a shadow have compared to what causes it to begin with?
Exodus 31:16-17, the Sabbath is a sign or a token (the word used depends on the Bible) and it is for the children of Israel.”

Heb. 4:4-11, says the rest (Sabbath) is yet to come. the Old Testament Sabbath (a sign) pointed to a New Testament sign (Sunday, first day) which pointed to the reality, heaven. So your rules fail here. They also fail in that one of the reasons Judah went into the second exile was because they did not keep their Sabbaths, so Sabbath had a reality of its own in addition to the sign, the same as the Law did.

Augustine adopted Origen’s allegorizing of the scriptures as an hermeneutic tool to aid in removing the place of authority of the church at Jerusalem and to consolidate the power of the Roman Empire and the church.

13,634 posted on 04/26/2007 8:26:31 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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