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To: Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine; Quix
They are all Truth

They say opposite things. That much is certain.

Cherry picking Scripture can result in a perception of paradox which is not real

Every time there is a clear contradiction we call it a "paradox" and move on.

This is not “know” in the sense of recognize

I am aware of that.

And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God...Luke 4:41

Two things about this: first, demons were not what we think of "demons" (that had to wait until the Middle Ages), and two, what they are saying is that he is the Jewish messiah, the anointed of God, not that he is God himself.

What's the point of that verse anyway?

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:26-27

Look, this clearly contradicts Luke 4:41 where the demnons say they believe...yet John says I don't know you because you don't believe...which is it?

To paraphrase, if we declare Christ, He will declare us – if we deny Him, he will deny us

And here I though faith was a free (unconditional) gift of God as they say. Seems like there are some heavy ropes attached to this.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead

Only Paul (and one verse in Acts, probably under Pual's influence) says that Christ was raised by God. The Church professes that Christ rose on the third day. At no time was there a separation between His human and His divine nature. Christ did not need "God" to raise Him any more than He "needed" the Spirit to lead Him into wilderness. Christ's divine nature was suffcient to lead him and to raise Him.

and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Obviously, reading wasn't an option. So much for sola scriptura.

13,475 posted on 04/24/2007 1:02:41 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear kosta50!

They say opposite things. That much is certain.

No they do not say opposite things when we discern the revelations of God in the whole of Scripture, by the indwelling Spirit.

But anyone can pick phrases or sentences out of context and declare a contradiction. Muslim and atheist activists do this a lot on the internet in their efforts to turn believers away from Christ. The irrational hatred of Judeo/Christian belief and believers stands as evidence that more is at work than scholarly debate.

If one attempts to superimpose Aristotlean logic on God, he will no doubt see many Scriptural violations of the Law of Identity (e,g. Trinity) and Law of the Excluded Middle (either/or e.g. predestination v free will.) Likewise, if he begins with the presupposition that all that exists is what he can perceive with his own senses, he will reject much or most of Scripture.

For many this results (whether intentionally or not) in their anthropomorphizing God – i.e. rejecting anything about God which the mortal mind cannot obtain. These cannot know anything but a conceptualization of a small “god.” The others however may have an evil intent, namely the spirit of anti-Christ or anti-God.

And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God...Luke 4:41

Two things about this: first, demons were not what we think of "demons" (that had to wait until the Middle Ages), and two, what they are saying is that he is the Jewish messiah, the anointed of God, not that he is God himself.

To the contrary, even presuming a strictly Jewish Messianic meaning to the term “Christ the Son of God” – the phrase “Son of God” means the devils were saying Jesus Christ is equal to God the Father:

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. – John 5:18

You asked in reference to Luke 4:41:

What's the point of that verse anyway?

I raised it to contrast between “knowing” as in recognizing (which the devils did here, recognizing who Christ is) versus “knowing” as in intimacy (Christ knowing us, our knowing Christ.)

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:26-27

Look, this clearly contradicts Luke 4:41 where the demnons say they believe...yet John says I don't know you because you don't believe...which is it?

As James also says, the demons believe and they tremble. Again, the difference is between “knowing” or believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and “knowing” as in the intimacy.

Also you have the cause/effect wrong. It is not “I do not know you because you don’t believe.” Rather, the first cause in this case is that the Father draws whom He will to Christ, then those who are drawn to Christ spiritually (not physically) hear Him, then Christ “knows” them (intimately) and they follow Him. That is why Peter is called the rock by The Rock.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. – Matt 16:17

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. – John 6:65

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

Not recognizing this sequence of cause/effect can result in man’s erroneously thinking that he has any power at all to redeem himself – e.g. by teeth gritting determination plus good deeds, etc.

me To paraphrase, if we declare Christ, He will declare us – if we deny Him, he will deny us

You And here I though faith was a free (unconditional) gift of God as they say. Seems like there are some heavy ropes attached to this.

It is certainly a gift of the Father to be drawn to Christ. And certainly Christ’s atonement is nothing that any of us could have earned. Indeed, if it were possible to be “good enough” then Christ died for nothing.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. – Galatians 2:21

But God is perfectly just. And we will all be held accountable not only for what we did in this mortal life – but for our intentions, our thoughts. The good that we might “do” in life which is motivated by our desire to win the praise of others will be loss. The measure we use in judging others, He will use in judging us. If we are merciful, we will obtain mercy. If we think a sin, even if we do not physically carry it out, we will be held accountable. And so on. (Sermon on the Mount) If we do nothing with the gifts He has given us we will be held accountable (parable of the talents.) If we choose not to follow the Spirit, we will be in peril (Romans 8.) If we deny Him, He’ll deny us, etc.

My musings on the Great White Throne Judgment is this: everyone Christ “knows” (book of life) will make it into the new heaven and earth. But many of us will find ourselves in poverty – heavenly ‘hippies’ – because we squandered the gift of grace while in the flesh. Some who have devoted their entire lives to the ministry – but for self-serving reasons – will find themselves impoverished and sitting in the back of the congregation. And others may be astonished to see what treasures they have laid up, or being assigned a place in the front of the congregation, because their motives were pure. The first will be last, the last will be first.

Only Paul (and one verse in Acts, probably under Pual's influence) says that Christ was raised by God. The Church professes that Christ rose on the third day. At no time was there a separation between His human and His divine nature. Christ did not need "God" to raise Him any more than He "needed" the Spirit to lead Him into wilderness. Christ's divine nature was suffcient to lead him and to raise Him.

The perceived conflict is not real, it is the consequence of superimposing Aristotle’s Law of Identity on God. Christ is God.

This anthropomorphizing of God is among the reasons why I’m so adamant about eschewing the doctrines and traditions of mortal men.

and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Obviously, reading wasn't an option. So much for sola scriptura.

Sola Scriptura is among the doctrines and traditions of men which I eschew. However, I hasten to point out that the “hearing” which matters is not physical (words spoken or read) but spiritual..

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

The ones Christ is speaking to here were physically hearing Him (sound, pressure waves) – but they were not, indeed could not, spiritually hear Him. God the Father had not drawn them to Christ.

In sum, terms such as “knowing” “believing” “hearing” require spiritual discernment. (I Cor 2)

13,525 posted on 04/25/2007 7:39:49 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine; Quix
AG: "To paraphrase, if we declare Christ, He will declare us – if we deny Him, he will deny us."

Kosta: "And here I thought faith was a free (unconditional) gift of God as they say. Seems like there are some heavy ropes attached to this."

God is in full control. This is not the conveyance of an arms-length offer, such as "if you cut my grass, I will give you $25." Rather, it is a statement of immutable fact, such as "if you drop a hammer, it will fall". God's will decides whether we ever declare Christ, for we are fully dependent on Him for the grace to do so.

13,769 posted on 05/01/2007 6:06:45 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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