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To: Alamo-Girl; annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; wmfights; blue-duncan; ...
I don't think this discussion has been about Calvinism, but about the distinctions between the Roman Catholic/Orthodox faiths and the Protestant faith.

Frankly, AG, many of your posts used to go right over my head. They seemed too personal, too inward.

I was suspicious.

Then as God would have it, I returned to reading Calvin and found in his writings many of the same things you were saying.

I can imagine Calvin, mired in the dark ages of idolatry and lies, reading Scripture and exclaiming -- "Here it is! Here is the Holy Spirit speaking to me personally. Here is the Holy Spirit showing me my salvation at the feet of Christ on the cross. Here are the words of God who tells me Christ has paid for every sin and I am now justified in His eyes by the sacrifice of His Son. Here is the Holy Spirit opening my heart and giving me understanding and quickening my mind and illuminating every page of Scripture.

B.B. Warfield about Calvin...

"His theological method was persistently, rigorously, some may even say exaggeratedly, a posteriori. All a priori reasoning here he not only eschewed but vigorously repelled. His instrument of research was not logical amplification, but exegetical investigation. In one word, he was distinctly a Biblical theologian, or, let us say it frankly, by way of eminence "the Biblical theologian of his age." Whither the Bible took him, thither he went: where scriptural declarations failed him, there he stopped short. It is this which imparts to Calvin's theological teaching the quality which is its prime characteristic and its real offence in the eyes of his critics--I mean its positiveness. There is no mistaking the note of confidence in his teaching, and it is perhaps not surprising that this note of confidence irritates his critics. They resent the air of finality he gives to his declarations, not staying to consider that he gives them this air of finality because he presents them, not as his teachings, but as the teachings of the Holy Spirit in His inspired Word. Calvin's positiveness of tone is thus the mark not of extravagance but of sobriety and restraint. He even speaks with impatience of speculative, and what we may call inferential theology, and he is accordingly himself spoken of with impatience by modern historians of thought as a "merely Biblical theologian," who is, therefore, without any real doctrine of God, such as Zwingli has. The reproach, if it be a reproach, is just. Calvin refused to go beyond "what is written"--written plainly in the book of nature or in the book of revelation. He insisted that we can know nothing of God, for example, except what He has chosen to make known to us in His works and Word; all beyond this is but empty fancy, which merely "flutters" in the brain. And it was just because he refused to go one step beyond what is written that he felt so sure of his steps. He could not present the dictates of the Holy Ghost as a series of debatable propositions."

Sound familiar? It did to me. And so while we probably still disagree over the meaning of some parts of Scripture, I believe we both have good reason to be confident our paths are being led directly by the Holy Spirit who will eventually, progressively and perfectly bring every thought to Christ and every child of God to the covert of His wings.

This was always revolutionary thinking. During the time of Christ, during the time of the Apostles, during the Reformation and still to this day -- the truth of the Holy Spirit has many enemies who seek to drown out its voice and erase its presence and supplant it with men and magisteriums and the priestly class and wooden idols and a variety of extra-Biblical sacraments that actually defame the word of God.

As if it possibly could.

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you...

But the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." -- John 14:16-18;26


13,456 posted on 04/24/2007 11:14:28 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl

“Frankly, AG, many of your posts used to go right over my head.”

Frankly, many of both of your posts still go right over my head. But then, I am male!


13,458 posted on 04/24/2007 11:39:23 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; annalex; hosepipe; Quix; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; wmfights; blue-duncan
Then as God would have it, I returned to reading Calvin and found in his writings many of the same things you were saying.

Words fail to express my joy over this, dear sister in Christ!

I would that every congregation or assembly would spend some time in discussing the Holy Spirit especially with newborn Christians.

He [Calvin] could not present the dictates of the Holy Ghost as a series of debatable propositions.

Precisely so. IMHO, a Christian begins to understand this when he has experienced both the knowledge of Scripture and the power of God through the indwelling Spirit.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. – Matt 22:29

At that point, the questions he asks, the answers he receives are in a spiritual language that others like him also speak. The conversation may sound “illogical” or "spooky" to those who are not yet speaking in that spiritual language (I Cor 2)

13,470 posted on 04/24/2007 12:44:00 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; annalex; Quix; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; wmfights; blue-duncan
I can imagine Calvin, mired in the dark ages of idolatry and lies, reading Scripture and exclaiming -- "Here it is! Here is the Holy Spirit [...] This was always revolutionary thinking

Why, I can imagine the same thing. This is why I profoundly despise this miserable, conceited, hateful liar. He could only operate among the miserable, conceited, hateful semiliterates.

13,488 posted on 04/24/2007 2:11:35 PM PDT by annalex
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
You said......
“I can imagine Calvin, mired in the dark ages of idolatry and lies, reading Scripture and exclaiming — “Here it is! Here is the Holy Spirit speaking to me personally.”

Augustine “Contra litteras Petiliana”, (Against the Letters of Petiliana) Bk.3, ch.6:
“If anyone preaches either concerning Christ or concerning His church or concerning any other matter which pertains to our faith and life; I will not say, if we, but what Paul adds, if an angel from heaven should preach to you anything besides what you have received in the Scriptures of the Law and the Gospels, let him be anathema.”

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture BUT FROM TRADITION, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary COUNCILS, THE AUTHORITY OF WHICH IS QUITE VITAL TO THE CHURCH.”
Letter of Augustine to Januarius 54,1,1, 400 A.D.

Of course Calvin did preach lies- the most horrific one was Calvin,s denial of the real presence (Transubstantiation) in the Eucharist.
In doing so he was NOT guided by the Holy Spirit,Calvin was was guided by the devil.
Every single early Church Father and Saint believed In the true presence.
The whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist was at the center of their lives.

There can only be one truth and one Holy Spirit that guides someone

There are three spirits, anyone one of which could be the one who is prompting a person.
1. There is first the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, and His prompting is from GOD.
2. Then there is the human spirit which manufactures the prompts through the imagination and other human traits.
3. Finally, there is the evil spirit and its prompting is straight from Satan.

Dear sister, do you actually believe that ALL the Saints and Early Church fathers were the ones being guided by their human spirit or an evil spirit regarding the true presence?

If you believe this , you have just elevated John Calvin as as Prophet above the lives of All the Saints.

Where do you find this Prophet John Calvin in the Bible -:)

13,609 posted on 04/26/2007 6:40:50 AM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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