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To: kosta50; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine; Quix
Thank you so much for sharing your testimony and insights!

But, A-G, it is obvious that Peter did not really believe. If he did, he would not have denied Christ; he would not have started sinking on the lake, etc. He said he believed, but when challeneged, his faith failed. If his faith was given, as you say, then his faith was also taken away. We have no control over it. If God gave Peter the faith to say what he is quoted as saying Mat 16, then God must have taken that faith away from him when he denied Jesus shortly thereafter.

Peter had the seed of the faith, the initial divine revelation that Jesus Christ is Lord. Every Christian has this. (parable of the sower)

Where and how we go from there, our maturing (“working out our salvation” Phl 2:12) in Him – is different for each one of us. Some, for instance, never taste spiritual “meat” but are always on “milk.” (I Cr 3) Peter stumbled quite a bit as he matured. Paul hit the ground running. John and Mary (Luke 10:38-42) – in my view – found the “good part.”

But, the truth is, Peter did not say Jesus is God. We read into this for obvious reasons. In the context of the Jewish mindset of a simple fisherman, he said (stripped of all the hyped tag-names) "You are the anointed one, the favored one of the living God." He does not say that Jesus is God.

You are quibbling over the translation. The Jews were expecting the anointed one, the Messiah. Their error then, and now, was in expecting the Messiah to be a mortal king and conqueror only. They never saw Him as the Lamb of God. Jesus did not open the eyes of the Apostles to this Truth until they had to know it. They could only handle so much at a time:

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. - John 16:12

The operative part of the passage is not what Peter said but what Jesus said, i.e. what it meant – that the Father revealed it to him, flesh and blood did not reveal it.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. – Matt 16:17

The point is that Peter was the first to receive this revelation from the Father. That is what made Peter the “rock” in the context of The Rock (Deut 32:4):

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. – John 6:65

You continued:

But even then they doubted and wanted "proof." Thomas doubted aloud. But they all had their doubts. Not one of them is quoted as saying "Of course! I knew it" when the news reached that that Christ was no longer in His tomb.

When they knew Christ in the flesh, they knew Him as another being – spatially separated from their own persons. But at Pentecost, that knowledge became quite personal and they began to share in the mind of Christ. (Acts, I Cor 2, Romans 8, etc.)

There is no doubt that Christ lives for those of us who "know" Him because He "knows" us!

What makes us Christians is an irrational belief (or hope) in bodily resurrection. But even Paul teaches to the contrary: "I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." [I Corinthians 15:50] This tells me that Paul believed (consistent with his Judaism) in spiritual resurrection, but not one of the body (this would also be very consistent with some other very Gnostic statements of Paul's earlier writings).

There is a physical body and there is a spiritual body. After the resurrection, Christ’s body was quite real - but it was a resurrection body and thus different from the one He had before.

Thomas was able to thrust his hand in His side – and yet Christ appears to several without revealing His identity and in other instances, appears in the midst of a closed room. This is the type of body we shall also have:

So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. – I Cor 15:42-45

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. – John 3:5-6

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. – Romans 8:22-23

A presumption that the spiritual body and the resurrection body are mutually exclusive - or that the resurrection body is physical or non-physical (either/or) - is again superimposing the Aristolean Law of Identity on God.

God's power is not limited to man's logic.

13,450 posted on 04/24/2007 10:26:44 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine; Quix
Thanks, A-G.

Peter stumbled quite a bit as he matured. Paul hit the ground running. John and Mary (Luke 10:38-42) – in my view –found the “good part.”

The last will be the first.

Jesus did not open the eyes of the Apostles to this Truth until they had to know it. They could only handle so much at a time

That much is obvious.

You are quibbling over the translation

No, I am merely putting it in the context. That verse has been misleadingly used over and over to show that Peter knew Jesus was God. And for that he received the keys?

Like I said, no one, not even John not even the Mary said "I knew it!" when the news of resurrection arrived.

The point is that Peter was the first to receive this revelation from the Father

He did not see Jesus as God. He was simply stating that He is the future king (of Israel) He claims to be. There was no revelation there.

There is a physical body and there is a spiritual body

Yeah? And what exactly is a "spiritual body?" A spirit, by definition, has no body.

13,464 posted on 04/24/2007 12:11:34 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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