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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Kolokotronis; kosta50; Quix; kawaii; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan
The assertion that this equally applies to the departed is completely fabricated by the Church

One thing 1 Timothy 2:1-5 unequivocally proves is that the fact that Christ is the only mediator to the Father does not prohibit intercession.

As to the separation between the living and the dead, Christ erased it, at least as concerns His saints:

Every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting (Mt. 19:29)

Are we separated from the saints? If so, we would be separated from Christ also, as He is with them in the everlasting life. But no, death does not separate us from either Christ or His angels or saints:

35 Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? or distress? or famine? or nakedness? or danger? or persecution? or the sword? 36 (As it is written: For thy sake we are put to death all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.) 37 But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8)

God hath set forth us apostles, the last, as it were men appointed to death: we are made a spectacle to the world, and to angels, and to men. (1 Cor 4:9)


12,457 posted on 04/12/2007 5:36:03 PM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Kolokotronis; kosta50; Quix; kawaii; Dr. Eckleburg

“As to the separation between the living and the dead, Christ erased it, at least as concerns His saints:”

Where do you get this from the scripture you quote? It is not even talking about death.

David says of his dead son, “he can’t come to me”. The wraithe called Samuel says to Saul “why do you bother me”. Paul says to the Philippians “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Paul tells them it is better for them that he stays alive with them than to be with Jesus interceding for them. He tells Timothy that “I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness”. He knows he is about to die and he knows his job is done. There is no talking about his interceding for anyone. You would think that with all that he knows about the trouble Timothy is having Paul would comfort him with the knowledge that he would put in a good word for him in heaven and continue to intercede for him. Nothing, nada. Paul has finished his work.

There is no mention in the scriptures of those who have died in Christ interceding for anyone, but there is the exhortation for us, the living, to continue in prayer for each other. It is the job of the saints here.


12,462 posted on 04/12/2007 7:30:54 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: annalex; All

As to the separation between the living and the dead, Christ erased it, at least as concerns His saints:

Every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting (Mt. 19:29)

Are we separated from the saints? If so, we would be separated from Christ also, as He is with them in the everlasting life. But no, death does not separate us from either Christ or His angels or saints:
= = = =

NO! Such assertions are gross assumptions, inferences, extrapolations.

Those verses say NOTHING about whether there is still a gulf between the living and the dead. In fact, Christ mentioned such a gulf when talking about the dead rich man that wanted to warn his relatives.

Certainly we could say legally we are saved and one with Christ. We can say that Christ indwells us by His
Spirit. But that’s fudging on the issue of whether there’s a gulf between the living and those who’ve graduated from this life.

They ARE NOT WITH US in the sense that they were when alive in this time/space dimension. Neither is Christ with us in the sense that he was with the Disciples in this time/space dimension.

PRETENDING OTHERWISE IS PRETENSE of the worse sort, imho.

We do NOT have ready access to dialogue with those who’ve graduated from this life. IN FACT, there seems to be very strict rules about such and they are USUALLY not violated—except in fairly rare Heavenly visitatioins etc.

In fact, even at the Ascension, the angels chided, exhorted, rebuked the Disciples for gazing into the Heaven vs getting on with the business of the Gospel in this time/space dimension—and they were gazing after CHRIST HIMSELF vs some departed believer.

It is clear from any fair-minded reading of Scripture that God has set the current rules up such that we are to be about His business for us in this time/space dimension with little to no awareness of the goings on with the believers who’ve already graduated from this life.

There’s mention of the “cloud of witnesses.” But we are given little to no elaboration of what that means. Inferring, extrapolating and assuming what it means just doesn’t cut it in terms of justifying a given theology based thereon.


12,472 posted on 04/12/2007 10:15:14 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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