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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; HarleyD; kawaii
It's interesting that [annalex] would use the word "saved", for James. The two translations I use (KJV, NIV) say "justified", and I was going to form an argument that the use of that word here is not in the traditional Biblical salvific mode, i.e. (Strong's 1344) "dikaioo" means "justified" in the eyes of men, not before God.

Well, Abraham was asked to put his faith to a test. We see the same with Job. The common thread in all of them is: God knows that we have faith, but God wants us to show it by works.

In Exodus, God knew which houses were Jewish, but He wanted the Jews to mark them anyway to show their faith. Certainly God didn't need the markers (as He knows what's in our hearts)! But he wanted them.

So, +James uses the word "justified" (δικαιόω) in the traditional Jewish manner: that one is made acceptable (justified) to God by faith manifested by works .

Thus, in 2:24, James says "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." If this seems irreconcilable with +Paul from the Protestant point of view, it is! [which is why Luther has so much difficulty with +James]

But +James also uses the word "saved" (σώζω) as an apocalyptic concept, which is related to but not identical with justification. Thus he says "lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls" [1:21]. Notice that he says the word is able. There is no guarantee. And in 2:14 +James says "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

James uses the term "saved" as the end-of-times Judgment and not a moment, which is the way the original Jewish Christians understood it (being an apocalyptic sect of Judaism) and how the Church interprted it from the beginning.

12,260 posted on 04/09/2007 7:06:11 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; fortheDeclaration; annalex; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; HarleyD; kawaii
Well, Abraham was asked to put his faith to a test. We see the same with Job. The common thread in all of them is: God knows that we have faith, but God wants us to show it by works.

Right. Works are a SHOW of faith already held. Abraham already had 25 years of faith when he showed it yet again at the altar with Issac.

In Exodus, God knew which houses were Jewish, but He wanted the Jews to mark them anyway to show their faith. Certainly God didn't need the markers (as He knows what's in our hearts)! But he wanted them.

Sure, God wants obedience. Certainly this story was an excellent lesson that obedience is life-saving, in this case literally. :) Also, I think God wanted the story preserved for all future generations to learn from. This story is PACKED.

Thus, in 2:24, James says "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." If this seems irreconcilable with +Paul from the Protestant point of view, it is! [which is why Luther has so much difficulty with +James]

You've been saying it right this whole post, faith saves and is showed, or manifested in works. Paul has no problem with this.

Thus [James] says "lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls" [1:21]. Notice that he says the word is able. There is no guarantee.

Yes, the word IS power and is ABLE to save. But there is no "guarantee" that everyone who reads it or knows it is saved. We all know that many regular and knowledgeable churchgoers do not wind up in Heaven. The word to focus on here is "receive". That is done through faith by grace, which comes only from God. This is another outward call.

And in 2:14 +James says "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

Yes, we are talking about a man who SAYS he has faith. That faith may be true or it may not. One strong evidence of true faith is works. And, all those with true faith WILL produce works. A man who says he has faith, but then does no works, bears false fruit and therefore has a false faith. It does not save him.

James uses the term "saved" as the end-of-times Judgment and not a moment ...

The uses are not mutually exclusive. We are saved at Judgment day, and we are saved when we accept Christ, and we are saved when God so predestined it from the foundations. It depends on how you look at it. They are all true, but none refer to a process.

12,889 posted on 04/17/2007 2:11:10 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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