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To: annalex; Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; kawaii
When St. Paul says that Abraham was saved not by works he speaks of circumcision instituted by God through Abraham; and when St. James speaks of Abraham saved by works, he speaks of the sacrifice of Isaac.

I would disagree with this statement. Paul talks about Abraham receiving the sign of circumcision as "the righteousness of faith". Paul makes it very clear in Romans 4 that he received this after the fact and that it is a sign of his faith. This is also stated by the writer of Hebrews.

While I haven't followed all of this conversation, it's rather interesting that you would referred to Abraham as being "saved". As FK pointed out, Paul states that Abraham was "justified". This is a subtle but important point. We don't pop into and out of salvation. We are either justified or we're not. Abraham was justified when he believed God. Thirteen years later Abraham circumcised his camp. Twenty-five years from the time he left his homeland, Abraham was willing to offered Issac as a sacrificed knowing that God would raise him from the dead, a foreshadowing of things to come. It seems problematic to say Abraham was saved based upon the work of sacrificing Issac. In my mind that isn't what James is saying at all given the chonology. Instead, Abraham willingness to sacrifice Isaac stands as a testimony to the world of his justification received 25 years before.

12,255 posted on 04/09/2007 5:46:41 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; annalex; Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; kawaii
Instead, Abraham willingness to sacrifice Isaac stands as a testimony to the world of his justification received 25 years before.

Amen!

FWIW, after God stopped Abraham's hand isn't it interesting that a substitute sacrifice was in the thicket. A Ram stuck by its horns. Jesus probably reminded the two believers on the road to Emmaus about this.

Luke 24:27...He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

12,283 posted on 04/09/2007 11:09:22 AM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; kawaii
I would disagree with this statement. Paul talks about Abraham receiving the sign of circumcision as "the righteousness of faith". Paul makes it very clear in Romans 4 that he received this after the fact and that it is a sign of his faith. This is also stated by the writer of Hebrews.

I don't see what you are disagreeing with. Yes, the circumcision of Abraham was not salvific, but was a covenantal sign of faith.

It seems problematic to say Abraham was saved based upon the work of sacrificing Issac. In my mind that isn't what James is saying at all given the chonology

With respect, what seems to you in your mind has little bearing on the conversation does it?

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food: 16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
The question is put regarding salvation; the discourse proceeds about justification. The segue about "showing faith through works" is rhetorical; St. James considers it (v.18) and rejects it (v. 20). The context does not warrant the distinction between justification and salvation you are trying to make. The conclusion is blunt; "faith without works is dead"; this means that the final product of that faith is death.
12,449 posted on 04/12/2007 3:57:09 PM PDT by annalex
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