we have an honest disagreement. Even in the English, as Quix has said, the Gospel message is clear
Obviously, not clear enough for us not have disagreements. :) The examples are too numerous to list, but consider only representative few. Such as the Roman Catholic (and very few Orthodox) reading of Peter's commission with the keys. Or the Protestant interpretation of +Paul's gospel (although technically not part of the Gospels) is radically different from the way the Church understood him (officially) almost from the start.
You are absolutely right to say that correct discernment is critical. However, what would you say the source of discernment is?
God of course! But our discernment is clouded by the human fall.
Is it the free will brains that God gave us and then respected so much not to tamper with? Or, does God grace us with discernment, on a continual basis?
Catholics and Orthodox will answer: both!. He gave us reason so that we may discern, and freedom so that we may choose, which He respects by His own decision, out of love.
IF God is truly in control, then there will be no false impressions about the Gospel for those God intends to receive it, in any language and at any time. Eyes to see and ears to hear.
But that presupposes that there are actually people who discern God's Word perfectly. We (and I think I can speak on behalf of our Catholic brothers as well) do not believe that any man is capable of perfectly understanding God's Word, but that the (One Holy Catholic and Apostolic) Church collectively contains the correctness and fullness of our Faith.
Some rely on a body of men for resolution, and some rely on the Holy Spirit
Actually, we rely on the a body of men who were commissioned by the Holy Spirit (the Apostles and their successors); others rely on their personal opinion (understanding) as being that of the Holy Spirit. It is clear where traps of narcissism can be discerned.
Of course, individuals who rely on the Spirit don't get it right every time, just as individuals who claim authority by the pronouncement of men don't get it right every time
Show me one of the Seven Ecumenical Councils to be in error. What we Orthodox consider infallible are the Scriptures, the Divine Liturgy (which pronounces the Scriptures), and the Ecumenical Councils, which are based on Scriptures. The three constitute what we call the Holy Tradition, not the tradition(s) of men.
Obviously, not clear enough for us not have disagreements. :) The examples are too numerous to list, but consider only representative few. Such as the Roman Catholic (and very few Orthodox) reading of Peter's commission with the keys. ...
First, it depends on what one considers "the Gospel". I was thinking more along the lines of those parts of it upon which we DO agree. There obviously must be enough there for both of us to consider each other Christians. Second, I was only speaking of scripture alone. When we get scripture alone versus scripture plus Tradition, there will be major differences.
FK: "However, what would you say the source of discernment is?"
Kosta: "God of course! But our discernment is clouded by the human fall."
FK: "Is it the free will brains that God gave us and then respected so much not to tamper with? Or, does God grace us with discernment, on a continual basis?"
Kosta: "Catholics and Orthodox will answer: both!. He gave us reason so that we may discern, and freedom so that we may choose, which He respects by His own decision, out of love."
I don't see how it can be both. Is the reconciliation of both of your statements that God does NOT, in fact, grace us with discernment, but rather that He gives us the TOOLS for discernment, and then we do the actual discerning ourselves? If true, then this would mirror our disagreements over salvation/theosis itself, i.e., whether Christ actually does the saving.
FK: "IF God is truly in control, then there will be no false impressions about the Gospel for those God intends to receive it, in any language and at any time. Eyes to see and ears to hear."
But that presupposes that there are actually people who discern God's Word perfectly. We (and I think I can speak on behalf of our Catholic brothers as well) do not believe that any man is capable of perfectly understanding God's Word, ...
Nobody claims that any one person discerns God's word perfectly. All we know is that what God sends IS perfect, and from these we suppose that our individual rates of discernment vary from person to person according to the will of the Spirit. That only makes sense. There are plenty of truths I think I have now that I was in no way ready to handle before. Discernment builds upon itself one step at a time. It is a lifelong process, and no one gets it all in this lifetime. For example:
Phil 1:9-11 : 9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ — to the glory and praise of God.
Love, knowledge, depth of insight, and discernment are all things that grow.
Show me one of the Seven Ecumenical Councils to be in error. What we Orthodox consider infallible are the Scriptures, the Divine Liturgy (which pronounces the Scriptures), and the Ecumenical Councils, which are based on Scriptures.
We believe that the scriptures pronounce the scriptures, so it comes down to interpretation and the authority of the interpreter. I was unable to find a readable synopsis of the holdings of the seven councils, but if you know of one, I would be happy to read it.