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To: annalex
The RCC teaches that a man is justified by faith without works? The Church teaches that man is justified by faith without works of law. Works of love are, however, necessary for salvation, and are not mere product of faith, but rather they are necessary to form faith.

Well, then they aren't following the scriptures (what a shock!)

6 [God] will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 2)

And that passage is not speaking of adding anything to faith to be saved.

It is speaking of seeking the truth (like Corneilus did in Acts 10, who was called a 'devout man', but still an unsaved one).

The Jews who rejected the Gospel that Paul was preaching, by faith alone, stumbled over it since they sought it not by faith

In Acts 13 the Jew is called 'unworthy of eternal life' because they rejected the free offer of salvation presented by Paul. (Acts 13:46)

The Jews asked what work they might do to work the works of God, and Christ answered them,

this is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent (Jn.6:28-29)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? (James 2)

And where have I seen this before?

As I stated in another post, a dead faith is a non-fruit bearing faith.

It doesn't mean the faith did not exist and thus, save the individual soul, since the seed that is planted is immortal (1Pe.1:22).

God deals with those who do not bear fruit with judgement on earth (Gal.6, Heb.13, 1Jn.5) and loss of rewards in heaven (1Cor.3), but James is not saying anything about salvation in James 2, he speaking of how one shows his faith, not how one adds to it.

But once again I do notice that you avoid Paul's statements in Rom.4 that state very clearly that works are not involved at all in salvation.

You would rather go to hell misunderstanding James and ignoring Paul then go to heaven believing what God wrote about salvation being by faith without works (Rom.4:5).

Faith is the root, works are the fruit, fruit adds nothing to the root, it is the root that is the issue and no fruit just shows that the root has died.

5 ... the apostles said to the Lord: Increase our faith. 6 And the Lord said: If you had faith like to a grain of mustard seed, you might say to this mulberry tree, Be thou rooted up, and be thou transplanted into the sea: and it would obey you. 7 But which of you having a servant ploughing, or feeding cattle, will say to him, when he is come from the field: Immediately go, sit down to meat: 8 And will not rather say to him: Make ready my supper, and gird thyself, and serve me, whilst I eat and drink, and afterwards thou shalt eat and drink? 9 Doth he thank that servant, for doing the things which he commanded him? 10 I think not. So you also, when you shall have done all these things that are commanded you, say: We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which we ought to do.

And that passage has nothing to do with what we are discussing.

It shows that we ought to work, not that works are necessarly for salvation since salvation comes by faith, not the works.

12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works. (Apoc. 22)

Yes, everyman will be judged according to his works, the Christian at the judgement seat of Christ and if he has produced nothing he will not receive any reward (but he will still be saved)(1Cor.3,Rom.14:10,2Cor5:10).

The unbeliever at the Great White Throne Judgement, who did not have faith and thus will be judged for his works to see if he rates entrance into heaven.

Since his works cannot save him, his name then will be searched for in the book of life and if it is not there, then he will be condemned to the lake of fire (Rev.20).

Works cannot save, they add nothing to faith, they only show what one has already believed.

Now, don't throw out 'proof texts' unless you are able to deal with what Paul states in Rom.4.

I have showed that James is not contradicting Paul and is not speaking of salvation, as even your own RCC bible states.

12,113 posted on 03/27/2007 3:14:40 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (For what saith the scripture? (Rom.4:3))
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To: fortheDeclaration
Yawn. What you post is protestant pap, and it is not scriptural. some passages could be interpreted your way in isolation, but the protestant sola fide is not anything scriptural if the scripture is viewed as a whole.

[Romans 2:6-10] is not speaking of adding anything to faith to be saved.

It does not speak of faith at all; it says plainly that he who "worketh good" is saved, and who does not, is not. What you offer is counterscriptural spin.

James is not saying anything about salvation in James 2

Yeah, right. Learn to read. Generally, your musings on James are uncomprehensible, when the passage is very clear: "by works a man is justified; and not by faith only". Period, end of story. Clear scripture.

you avoid Paul's statements in Rom.4 that state very clearly that works are not involved at all in salvation.

Romans 4 says that works of law, such as the circumcision (see verse 9), are not involved in salvation. It contains no general statement of works not involved in salvation "at all", -- this is your invention.

[Luke 17:5-10] shows that we ought to work, not that works are necessarly for salvation

Christ explains in that passage that work increases faith, if it is done not out of obligation, but out of love of God, just as the Church teaches.

the Christian [will be judged] at the judgement seat of Christ and if he has produced nothing he will not receive any reward (but he will still be saved)(1Cor.3,Rom.14:10,2Cor5:10).

This theory -- that works only count for reward -- is Protestant spin. The Scripture does not teach that. 1 Cor 3 speaks of the suffering of the saved soul for past impurutues, -- it is a prooftext for purgatory, as I recall explaining to you once, -- but it does not guarantee salvation without good works. Rom. 14:10 seimply states that we will all be judged, it does not explain on what principle. 2Cor5:10 is, of course, another prooftext for necessity of works for salvation itself, not for rewards of the saved: "we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil". You cite what you don't understand, and it does not remove the clear teachign of Romans 2 and James 2, that deal with the issue directly.

Moving to your next post.

Mary offered up a sin offering like any other Jewish woman did

That she did, but it does not say anything about her actually sinning.

The only one I am concerned about understanding is the Lord Jesus Christ

At that, you fail. False mariology is false christology.

12,138 posted on 03/29/2007 3:03:58 PM PDT by annalex
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