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To: annalex; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; kawaii; kosta50
FK: "If it is totally up to the free will of the individual (and the Church), as you say, how can you be sure that all of the elect will reconcile?"

We are not sure indeed. This is why 2 Peter speaks of making sure one's calling and election.

Well, in that case, you cannot believe there is even a such thing as the "elect". If any of the elect ultimately fall short, then the concept is destroyed. Obviously, this also means you have no use for the Biblical concept of predestination, even in the Arminian sense. Oh well.

FK: "... not that [...] we take care of our own salvations by choosing to participate in ritual sacraments."

The scripture says the exact opposite: "Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day" (John 6).

When we read this we both know immediately that interpretation is required, since neither of us condones cannibalism. The symbolism is clearly physical to spiritual, AND NOT physical to physical. What is the clear pattern of our Lord? It is the former: "The Kingdom of Heaven is like....". "Eating" and "drinking" Christ does not refer to mere physical imitation. It refers to something much much larger and more important. Christ is not wasting time here, He is talking about faith and acceptance of Him as Lord. The flesh counts for nothing.

The distinction between the elect working and God working is artificial; however, there is no scripture that says that God violates the free will of the elect as He leads them.

One of our differences is in seeing God as a true leader, or as just a consultant. The elect are led and WILL obey. "Free will" is not violated because God is the one Who formed the (new) will.

12,020 posted on 03/26/2007 7:06:10 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; kawaii; ...
If any of the elect ultimately fall short, then the concept is destroyed

Not at all. If he falls short, he is not of the elect, even though he is called. If he is among the elect, he will do what St. Peter tells him, repent, grow in virtues, remain elect, and sin no more.

we both know immediately that interpretation is required, since neither of us condones cannibalism

There is no cannibalism. Christ is present in the Eucharist and tells us to eat it, which is his real body. He also tells us that this is food to profit our spirit rather than out flesh (John 6:64), which alone would discount any cannibalistic fantasies. No interpretation is required, and none is contemplated in this passage by my Church.

The flesh counts for nothing.

This is not interpretation, this is mistranslation, designed to tell you lies about the gospel.

One of our differences is in seeing God as a true leader, or as just a consultant

A true leader leads free men who know what they are doing as they follow. What you see is a slave runner.

10 For wisdom came forth from God: for praise shall be with the wisdom of God, and shall abound in a faithful mouth, and the sovereign Lord will give praise unto it. 11 Say not: It is through God, that she is not with me: for do not thou the things that he hateth. 12 Say not: He hath caused me to err: for he hath no need of wicked men. 13 The Lord hateth all abomination of error, and they that fear him shall not love it. 14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel. 15 He added his commandments and precepts. 16 If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee. 17 He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt. 18 Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him: 19 For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing. 20 The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knoweth all the work of man.

(Ecclesiasticus 15)


12,085 posted on 03/26/2007 7:30:43 PM PDT by annalex
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