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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; jo kus; annalex; redgolum; blue-duncan; xzins
I'm starting to wonder if we have extremely different ideas about what was going on during Jesus' upbringing. :)

I am starting to wonder if we have entirely different ideas as to what is holy.

Mary was full of Grace. That which God touched is considered holy. She was holy. Touching that which is holy would desecrates it.

I can't believe you don't see the connection when you insist that there's nothing wrong with Mary and Joseph having sex post partum. There is nothing wrong with marital sex per se, but not when the sex object is someone purified by God. Anything else that touches it will make it less pure, less holy, "damaged goods."

For God, only the pure and without blemish was to be offered. You think Mary could just have sex and bear other children in the same womb that carried Christ? How bizarre! We are worlds apart, indeed. God is not your next door neighbor who borrows your new tool and then you continue to use it. But I am beginning to believe that some Protestants see God as just the Good Ole Old Man next door that we can be "buddies" with.

1,191 posted on 12/12/2006 9:55:12 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
For God, only the pure and without blemish was to be offered. You think Mary could just have sex and bear other children in the same womb that carried Christ? How bizarre! We are worlds apart, indeed. God is not your next door neighbor who borrows your new tool and then you continue to use it. But I am beginning to believe that some Protestants see God as just the Good Ole Old Man next door that we can be "buddies" with.

Mary was pure and undefiled (in the sanctified sense that you are posing) ... when she offered herself to God for His purpose.

Afterwards, God left her with us ... as a continuing blessing to us ... to Joseph, to Jesus, etc.

God is not our buddy ... but He is our Father ... who gives every good and perfect gift unto His children.

1,195 posted on 12/12/2006 10:07:13 AM PST by Quester
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; jo kus; annalex; redgolum; xzins

Then why go through the charade of betrothal and marriage. The command even before sin was that (Gen. 2:24,) "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." One flesh is one flesh.

Do you think God selected Mary to bare Jesus after she was betrothed to Joseph? If before, and it was God's plan all along that she was to remain a virgin, then Joseph was defrauded because he didn't find out she was pregnant until after the betrothal and there is no scripture that says he was told she was eternally a virgin.

Touching the holy makes one holy it does not desecrate the holiness.


1,196 posted on 12/12/2006 10:17:30 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; jo kus; annalex; redgolum; blue-duncan; xzins; Quester; HarleyD; ...
Mary was full of Grace. That which God touched is considered holy. She was holy. Touching that which is holy would desecrate it.

Jesus taught in the Synagogues and touched them. Were they thereafter unholy places after others worshiped there? Since God never touched anything or anyone else in the way He "touched" Mary, I'm not sure what you are comparing it to. Are you thinking along the lines of the Ark of the Covenant? Those would not be comparable because God gave specific instructions not to touch the Ark. He gave no such instructions about touching Jesus and people did so all the time. The same goes for Mary, so nothing would prevent her own husband from touching her in that sense, nor would it prevent other people from hugging her, etc.

There is nothing wrong with marital sex per se, but not when the sex object is someone purified by God. Anything else that touches it will make it less pure, less holy, "damaged goods."(emphasis added)

Sex object? This Apostolic teaching is getting more and more interesting. :) Does the Bible say anywhere that martial sex is OK, ONLY IF the sex object has not been purified by God? Where does the Bible say that any husband touching the purified sex object will make it/she less pure or damaged goods? I do not understand this mindset that marital sex is somehow at odds with the concept of holiness. When married couples are together, is the woman somehow "defiled"? Is marital sex sort of a necessary "evil" for perpetuation purposes?

For God, only the pure and without blemish was to be offered. You think Mary could just have sex and bear other children in the same womb that carried Christ?

How do these two sentences relate? Jesus was pure and without blemish. He was offered as a sacrifice, Mary was not. Usually, when a womb is filled with child it is considered blessed, is it not? What sin did Mary commit that she was denied her womb ever being blessed again? :)

God is not your next door neighbor who borrows your new tool and then you continue to use it. But I am beginning to believe that some Protestants see God as just the Good Ole Old Man next door that we can be "buddies" with.

WHAT??? :) How do you arrive at that? My side is the one who harps on God's absolute sovereignty. It is we who say that God controls everything and gets whatever He wants whenever He wants it, and tramples over whatever we want if it stands in His way. Does that sound like my buddy next door? To the contrary, it is you who say that we cooperate with God, just like good neighbor buddies do. :)

1,455 posted on 12/15/2006 2:38:36 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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