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To: Mad Dawg
I have to ask. Do you think I am unfamiliar with or have forgotten the tests of Scripture you quote here?

No, not at all. But I don't know how you see them either. :) From my POV, I'm sure you can see how I would think there is an apparent contradiction.

You recognize the reference to envy, I hope?

I thought of the parable of the workers in the vineyard, but I still didn't think it applied. I have no problems with Mary. I don't envy her, I don't think she's getting special treatment that I "deserve", and it is not my purpose to tear her down. I worry that others exert such great energy in their Christian lives venerating, adoring, admiring, exhorting, praying to, supplicating to, lifting up, placing above others, and indeed placing faith in, etc., Mary, that the true focus of their worship may suffer. The distinctions made by truly learned Catholics here have some objective plausibility, but I seriously doubt that the masses have such an understanding. (That is only based on my personal interactions with "regular" Catholics who are not of the theologian ilk. No offense to them. :)

Finally, I think you DO have a cultural "lens".

Yes, I certainly do. I was saying that I don't think I had a theologic lens when I first started reading the Bible. But now, of course, I also have a theologic lens.

I don't think you get royalty, and how royal titles in another culture are part of the currency of honor. I think the lens not so much of the Reformation as of the Enlightenment and the separation of Church and state provides a distorted understanding of and affect towards this kind of lingo. It's a younger language.

Well, all of this could be right. :) Do you think it is correct that the hierarchy should be treated as Royalty, and that the Church's rightful place is to head the state? I mean this in the sense of the current political organization of the RCC. IOW, "the people" have zero say, and the hierarchs elect themselves to all offices of higher power.

OOPs I'm late for "24".

Never miss it. Still can't get over "little Ricky" as a tough guy. :)

11,672 posted on 03/22/2007 3:34:28 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
I'm WAY off my game today. So just this: Water comes to me on a hot day: I'm grateful for the well, I'm grateful for the pipe, I'm grateful for the hands that lift the water to my mouth. I don't think the well loses anything by my gratitude for the pipe, or that I am proud for being grateful for my hands bringing the water to my mouth.

If, in gratitude, I dedicated myself to "serving" the pipe, by keeping it in good repair, it seems to me the Protestants would say I was insulting the well and acting like I thought the water was generated by the pipe. If I washed my hands, they'd say (it seems) that I was proud.

After a while, I just don't know how to deal with this persistent claim of knowing my intentions better than I know them.

And We are supposedly to blame for everyone who misunderstands what we say. I'd say, listen, at least they're in church and one day they might hear what is being said. My neighbor saw the hypocrisy at a local Baptist church and resolved never to go again. I've tried to talk him out of it (and NOT into my Church, just into SOME place where Jesus is praised) but to no avail, NOW I see his response a reaction to Misunderstanding the idea that the Church is, as some of you say, the society of the elect. But I'm sure you all (Not you personally FK - You're in the group of Prots I would like to have too many beers with) would give that doctrine a pass, while holding us responsible for the misunderstandings and abuse of what we teach.

I kiss flowers. I kiss trees. I can look at my pathetic attempt at a lawn and watch the life and business going on in a square foot of it and glorify all the works of the Lord and join in their song of praise.

The way my feet are healing, the mind of Lister and whoever thought up antiseptic medicine. The very smell of feet unwashed for two weeks -- and the joy of washing them! Bless ye the Lord, praise Him and Magnify Him forever.

You wanna think I'm an idolater? Because I am blown away by what God does in His creation, much less in His holy and humble men and women of heart?

Oh, Shadrach Meshach and Abednego Bless ye the Lord, Praise Him and magnify Him forever -- and those poor gloomy people over there who think that because we dance between the earth and the sky and now bow to this partner and then curtsy to that one we are committing idolatry, If they think aragula is thistles and good red wine is poison, we should pray for their healing. But under no circumstances should we stop praising the Lord.

11,686 posted on 03/22/2007 9:08:00 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Tactical shotty, Marlin 1894c, S&W 686P, Sig 226 & 239, Beretta 92fs & 8357, Glock 22, & attitude!)
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