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To: Kolokotronis; annalex; Mad Dawg; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; kawaii; kosta50
FK: "Look at what the words say, use common sense, and see what the Bible says about the same subject in other places."

You didn't learn Greek first though, likely in high school you knew little or nothing of the societal of 1st century Greece and the Middle East and you used which version of the Scriptures, FK? English language lens, Western Enlightenment/Protestantant Reformation pov of history and society lens and (am I wrong?) the KJV lens.

Is learning Greek the only way to get an accurate reading of the Bible? While it's true that I didn't know anything about 1st century life anywhere, I don't think that hampered my being able to get the basics. At the time, I don't think I was able to handle anything where Greek could have even arguably made any difference anyway. Even now, I am unaware of how Greek could possibly lead one to one theology over another, IF read without a lens. I am more than willing to review examples, but I maintain my position that Apostolics are not the only ones in history who have been capable of understanding the Greek. From earlier discussions I have gotten the impression that only pre-disposed Apostolics have ever had the intelligence to understand the language. I have been told, in effect, that all Protestant translators throughout history are either liars or idiots. Obviously, I'm not down with that. :)

I just went to my bookshelf to see and the first Bible I ever started to read was the Revised Standard Version. It's been so many years that I can't quote a single distinct verse from it. My godmother gave it to me when I was baptized as an infant in a Methodist church. After that, the next time I stepped foot in a Methodist church was for pre-marriage counseling, as we were getting married in the Methodist church that my grandfather-in-law built in the 1920's. So the fix was in, but I didn't know anything about Methodists other than that they were Protestants. We married in our home town so family and friends could attend, but we were going to live here in St. Louis, so we never attended the church as members.

In any event, if knowing Greek is absolutely key to understanding vis-a-vis leading to one whole theology over another, then why hasn't someone done an NIV for your side??? That would seem to solve the problem. Surely there is SOME manner of expressing in English what you believe to be the complete revelation in Greek, SUCH THAT a plain reading leads to an Apostolic faith. Yet, it's 2,000 years later and NO ONE has bothered? :)

Besides, zillions of Catholics don't know a word of Greek and are just fine with their English Bibles.

Its near impossible for anyone today to avoid lenses when reading the Scripture, even if they have never seen it before in their lifetime, FK. This was certainly true for the Reformers.

Well, the Reformers were already learned men, so I wouldn't compare their position to my own. I agree that you and I today look at verses we haven't read (or studied) in a long time with a certain mindset, but my whole hypothesis was based on those truly starting from scratch, like I (reasonably) did. I still think there are plenty around the world who do the same thing to this day. (I spoke earlier about the Gideon's ministry.) It just depends on what is the first exposure. My children, for example, could not make the same claim as I, since they were/are being raised in the church. However, thank God, there are still lots of adults, old and young, who are coming to whatever Christian faith even with virtually no background. Some number of those begin by just picking up a Bible and reading through it. They are whom I'm talking about.

11,482 posted on 03/20/2007 12:09:59 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; annalex

"Even now, I am unaware of how Greek could possibly lead one to one theology over another, IF read without a lens."

"Brothers of the Lord". We've been through this and multiple other examples, FK. The implications of one's interpretation of that simple phrase are fundamental to the theology of the first 1500 years of Christianity.

"I have been told, in effect, that all Protestant translators throughout history are either liars or idiots."

I haven't told you that. But I will say that Protestant translators did and do have their own positions to advance, usually in opposition to what they believed, generally incorrectly, was Romish spin.

"My godmother gave it to me when I was baptized as an infant in a Methodist church."

Always liked the Methodists; they have great hymns! :)

"In any event, if knowing Greek is absolutely key to understanding vis-a-vis leading to one whole theology over another, then why hasn't someone done an NIV for your side??? That would seem to solve the problem."

Well, there is such an NT, relatively recently done and universally acclaimed as being a miserable piece of work. The reason nothing was ever done, save into Slavonic and Arabic/Syriac, was there was no need for it. We have it in the original. Why read a translation? But given the expansion of The Church into the wider world and the fact that English is becoming the world language, its time we did have a good translation to the extent that English can handle that (see the comment on the 7th Ecumenical Council I pinged you to).

"However, thank God, there are still lots of adults, old and young, who are coming to whatever Christian faith even with virtually no background. Some number of those begin by just picking up a Bible and reading through it. They are whom I'm talking about."

Like the Ethiopian Eunuch who needed at teacher?


11,486 posted on 03/20/2007 4:16:00 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; Mad Dawg; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; kawaii; kosta50

Your lense is simply and above all modernity, the "synthesis of all heresies" as Pope Pius X phrased it.


11,518 posted on 03/20/2007 9:58:52 AM PDT by annalex
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