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To: Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; kawaii; kosta50; ...
This matches my analogy of letting a baby stick a block in his eye, but not letting him choke on it

It also matches mine, of one getting a car repaired after a crash. It is true that God leads His Elect, but He does not do so against their free will. If they fail on their will, they, -- being elect -- will reconcile with God also on their free will, and through the ministry of His Church:

if we have known Christ according to the flesh; but now we know him so no longer. 17 If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new. 18 But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. 19 For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins; and he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. 20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God.

(2 Cor 5)

the passage has nothing to do with the Eucharist.

Yeah, right. "bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world" cannot possibly be about the Eucharist. What a thought.

did eating the manna have anything to do with their spiritual salvation?

The manna had everything to do with their physical arrival to the Promised Land, it prefugured our arrival to the Kingdom of Heaven, with which the Eucharist has everything to do.

some examples [of perseverance being guaranteed for the elect]

Yes, these verses say exactly that: that the work of Chist in the elect will be carried to completion. This is the Catholic teaching, and it is a trivial by-definition, axiomatic truth: the elect are these who will persevere to the end. God knows them; we don't. This does not negate the work of sanctification, outlined in 2 Peter 1, necessary to "make the election sure", that is to transform the initial call to Christ into eternal election.

salvation is not earned through works

I would agree that salvation is not earned through works outside of grace, but, as Peter writes, the heroic work of growth in virtues is necessary for it, once we know Christ.

have no assurance of their own salvations, even though it is objectively there

A fresh-eye reading of 2 Peter 1:2-11 does not allow for the interpretation that all this work on the virtues is only there to remember something his reader forgot. If that were the meaning, St. Peter would simply say, "don't forget to partake of that divine nature you've received when you got saved; it's in the kitchen cabinet on the right...".

11,436 posted on 03/19/2007 10:04:07 AM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex; Mad Dawg; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; kawaii; kosta50; Marysecretary
It is true that God leads His Elect, but He does not do so against their free will. If they fail on their will, they, -- being elect -- will reconcile with God also on their free will, and through the ministry of His Church:

No one is dragged kicking and screaming into Heaven. This is accomplished by God changing the wills of His elect, not by God suggesting that we use our inner goodness to overcome our sinful nature. If it is totally up to the free will of the individual (and the Church), as you say, how can you be sure that all of the elect will reconcile? You can't. The men of the Church are not infallible and the elect are not infallible. Only God is. ....... Your quote from 2 Cor. 5 supports my side. It is God who does the reconciling, not men by their inner good choices, and not the men of the Church through their superiority and higher class.

Yeah, right. "bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world" cannot possibly be about the Eucharist. What a thought.

That is salvation by ritual sacrament. The thought is that this isn't Biblical. By this standard uncounted millions of Catholics are doomed because they either do not participate, or they do so while unworthy. However, I'm sure you can provide a shortcut around this problem.

The manna had everything to do with their physical arrival to the Promised Land, it prefigured our arrival to the Kingdom of Heaven, with which the Eucharist has everything to do.

The connection is that God provides for ALL of our needs, physical and spiritual. It is not that God gives us physical food, but we take care of our own salvations by choosing to participate in ritual sacraments.

Yes, these verses say exactly that: that the work of Christ in the elect will be carried to completion.

But you turn it around to mean that the elect carry on the work, God peers through His crystal ball to see who performed, and then elects them. Phil. 1:6 says the opposite, God will carry on the work to completion.

A fresh-eye reading of 2 Peter 1:2-11 does not allow for the interpretation that all this work on the virtues is only there to remember something his reader forgot. If that were the meaning, St. Peter would simply say, "don't forget to partake of that divine nature you've received when you got saved; it's in the kitchen cabinet on the right...".

No one claimed that is the only point of the passage. First, the fresh-eye reading does not lead to one thinking he has been given a divine nature, so that's a problem right there. But right to the point:

2 Peter 1:9 : But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

I assume that your take is going to be that only past sins were forgiven because Christ only did a partial on the cross. (It was typical of Christ to only go half-way in the actions He took.) But verse 4 tells us that we are to rely on God's precious promises, and those promises in scripture do NOT tell us that we need to continually reacquire salvation after losing it over and over. If that were the meaning then God would have said "But now you have lost your salvation which I promised was secure. Now do further works to receive the blessings of men, that they may restore you."

11,661 posted on 03/21/2007 9:49:42 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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