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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; annalex; jo kus
Kosta: "Yet, individual Fathers can always say things that are not doctrinal or dogmatic, but are presenting hypotheses (theologoumenna), religious opinions, instead. It is important to state that this is so, lest it be misconstrued as the teaching of the Church."

Kolo: Let me add that theologoumenna are generally the sort of speculations which may be held so far as the Church is concerned. ...... The best example of a theologoumennon which is acceptable is likely the belief in the bodily assumption of the Theotokos after her death. This is not a dogmatic belief among the Orthodox as it is among the Latins ...

OK, so they are speculations that may be held by the laity without being prohibited by the Church. I.e., the "holding" is not by the Church, but by members of the laity. So, when I see the word "theologoumenna" the first thing I should do is not assume anything as to whether it is a widely held belief among the Orthodox. It may be, or not, (and that is all well and good :). For Orthodox, I can understand why Mary's assumption would not be dogmatic, because it was not in one of the seven councils. I'm not sure if the consensus patrum has ruled on doctrine since those times, or if they continue to make rulings today.

If all doctrine came from those seven councils, then my question is answered. If not, then knowing that the RCC had made a big deal of the Assumption, then why did the Orthodox not follow suit? It seems to me to be an idea that pretty much stands alone, unprovable in either direction.

11,426 posted on 03/19/2007 1:38:41 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus
If all doctrine came from those seven councils, then my uestion is answered. If not, then knowing that the RCC had made a big deal of the Assumption, then why did the Orthodox not follow suit?

The only thing that was decreed as regards to Mary by the first Seven Councils was that she is the One who Bore God (Theotokos), in response to Arian heresy claiming Christ to be a creature of God, the Son lesser to the Father, and in response to those heresies that called her Christotokos.

As for her death and assumption, the Orthodox always believed that she died and was assumed bodily into heaven on the third day of her passing. Many Catholics believed it as well, but the Latin Church was silent as to her death and assumption which would bring up other issues if she never died. (I guess we could say the same thing about Elijah, but he is supposed to come back from heaven and then die!)

I believe that the Catholic Church may still not teach specifically whether Mary did die. The reason for this is of course the Augustinian concept of the original sin which the Orthodox recognize but not as is understood in the west. If she had been cleansed of all sin at her own conception, and lived a sinless life (by choice, as she was 'equipped' to do so by special Grace), then she would have no reason to die any more than Eve would not have died had she not sinned.

St. John Chrysostom theorized that Mary could have sinned at the wedding in Cana, which would be enough to condemn her to die, but at the same time then it would be contrary to his own liturgical elements praising her as "pure."

I am not aware of any other father theorizing about her death and assumption. The only thing regarding consensus patrum one can say is that the East believed she died and was assumed bodily to heaven all along.

11,433 posted on 03/19/2007 8:43:13 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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