[Forest Keeper]

The idea that Panagia is the "New Eve" is both very patristic and very Orthodox, FK. I don't see that that concept in any way flows from our veneration of her; indeed it might be just the opposite at least to some extent. "Co-redemptrix", however, is neither. That's just heresy.

I'm not sure what you mean by "opposite". Also, I was under the impression that "New Eve" and "co-redemptrix" went hand in hand. What else is the point of New Eve?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Coming late to this discussion, I find the concept of the "new Eve" to be heretical.

Christ is the second Adam. To state then that Mary is the second (new) Eve is truly putting Mary on the same plane as Christ.

Heresy.

[Mad Dawg]

I don't agree with anybody. So there.

If CO in "co-redemptrix" means "Equal", then actually I do agree. Get the stake and the marshmallows, we gonna have a campfire. If it means "with", then I see some wiggle room.

As to "New Eve", wazza big deal? Whatever Mary "is" she is so by the gift of God and not in her own right. If she is "Queen of Heaven" it is not a title inherently hears, but is rather a courtesy title. The "Queen Mother" has no RIGHT to that title. She was queen by marriage not birth and is Queen Mother entirely by courtesy.

To call us "sons of God" makes us Princes of Heaven in a somewhat similar way, and the first yahoo who says he deserves it will be laughed all the way to the down elevator. New Eve, also because it was to Eve mark 1.0 that the promise was given that "her son would crush the serpent's head." If God wants to grant gifts and honors to the Theotokos, what's the deal? Shall we be envious because He is generous? Personally, I generally like parties, even when I'm not the guest of honor.

[Kolokotronis]

"I'm not sure what you mean by "opposite". Also, I was under the impression that "New Eve" and "co-redemptrix" went hand in hand. What else is the point of New Eve?

I mean opposite in that it seems to me likely that the veneration which The Church directs towards her arises in great measure from her position as the New Eve and not the other way around.

The idea of Panagia being the New Eve is easily explained. As Eve introduced Adam to the occasion of his Sin, the results of which cut us off as a race from fulfilling our created purpose, so Panagia's role in the Incarnation brought the New Adam to the world and through Him our potential to fulfill our created purpose was restored and the curse of the Sin of Adam removed. Thus, in the 9th song of the Nativity Canon, we chant apropos of Panagia, "Magnify, O my soul, Her who hath delivered us from the curse." In other words, Panagia put right what Eve's disobedience had put wrong.

You need to remember, FK, that Eastern Christianity has never taught that Adam and Eve were perfect in the Garden, nor that mankind after the Fall was utterly depraved. Through Adam's Sin, man's created nature, that is to be in the image and likeness of God, was incipiently corrupted in that sin, having entered the world, eventually blotted out almost totally our likeness to God, giving sin and death power over us. Christ, the New Adam, restored the potential through His annihilation of death, and He arrived here through the Panagia. As +Irenaeos of Lyon wrote, "...the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed through the obedience of Mary; for what Eve, a virgin, bound by her unbelief, that Mary, a virgin, unloosed by her faith." Against the Heresies, III, xxii, 4. Even earlier on, Justin Martyr, in calling Panagia the New Eve, wrote, "..."in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin." (Dialogue with Trypho, about 130 AD)

As Eve was our original mother in the flesh through whose disobedience we lost our potential for theosis and became bound to death, so Panagia, the New Eve, is our spiritual mother through whose obedience our deliverance was accomplished through Christ.

Is this co-redemptrix? No, not at all. Just as it was Adam's Sin which cursed mankind, so it was Christ's sacrifice which redeemed us. It wasn't Eve's sin, or Panagia's obedience which effected the curse or our salvation. I must say the whole co-redemptrix idea repels me. In fairness to the Latin Church, it has never proclaimed it as a dogma, though many have agitated for just that. I do not doubt for a moment that I do not fully understand the Latin dogma of the Immaculate Conception, but that notion, it seems to me, sets Panagia into a separate category of being, not truly human, or at least not the same as the rest of us ab initio with all that implies for Christology. This co-redemptrix idea, however, goes way beyond the IM and raises her to the level of a goddess. We Orthodox can chant in the Divine Liturgy, "It is truly right to bless you, Theotokos, ever blessed, most pure, and mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, without corruption you gave birth to God the Word. We magnify you, the true Theotokos.", but we don't confuse her with God!